AF-100 Another DSLR $9,000 4:2:0 is a solution?
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Ummm, yes the 3700 is at the top of Panasonic's narrative product line-up. Nothing to dispute there.
Straw man argument. No one claimed it was the end all film style camera.
Barry is only claiming (in response to your erroneous claim about the AF100), that the 3700 is the top of PANASONIC's narrative line-up. Whether it is the best camera of all manufacturer's for narrative film making is of course subject to dispute.
I'm guessing you haven't been around too long, either in the business or around Panasonic's products. They have listened like few companies have. Sorry, but to claim that Panasonic has not listened to users is in the laugh out loud category.
Jan_Crittenden
Veteran
How do you think we came up with this camera? It is in total response to our customers.
And while this camera is not at the top of the Narrative camera choices it is in this price range. You would be very surprized I guess how many films are using the AJ-HPX3700 and even the 370/300. For the AF100, the upgrade to AVC-Intra is called an AG-HPG20.
This is not possible as the internal structure of the camera will not allow it.
We have and that is why this camera and its respective feature set is what it is. Price point is a feature that cannot be denied. While I am sure people would love it to be a P2 camera at $4995, that is not possible. So if you want P2, then upgrade with an AG- HPG20. That would be about the additional cost it would take to make this camera into a P2 camera.
Best,
Jan
Alpha Beta Omega
Veteran
I just have to say that Panasonic really has listen to their customers and the result is AF100/101. Besides a smaller sensor than APS-C and no 10bit, it's about perfect and the price is just right for what one will get.
The fact that Jan is active in these threads and follow up on questions and reactions shows how dvxusers really has brought this product to us via Panasonic "over hearing" what we want.
The fact that Jan is active in these threads and follow up on questions and reactions shows how dvxusers really has brought this product to us via Panasonic "over hearing" what we want.
Except that the AF100 supports only 8-bit output via HDMI or HD-SDI. Obviously 10-bit would have been better. The extra two bits are wasted when recording out to AVC Intra.
Melvin Harris
Black Flag Member
How can anyone say we are not being listened to when there is a thread called AF100 wishlist? Did we forget that? Has Jan ever been on this board or answered questions? Has any community ever had access to upper management like this? Is there a 5dmIII wishlist thread that I am missing, or a XL-H2 thread, or maybe a Sony do anything right please wishlist? This camera was made for a market whose voices mattered, to even hint at anything different would be disingenuous.
Mister Stocks
Well-known member
When I read threads like this, sometimes I get really angry and I just start shouting at my computer screen, "computers aren't magic!"
I feel like people should already understand this when they clamor for RAW in a camera the size of a D90 or T2i, or when they yell for higher grade codecs via a firmware upgrade (really?).
I see a camera like this come out and I see progress. I don't understand the people who yell out "THEY CRIPPLED IT". They designed this camera to fill a niche in their lineup, that is not crippling it.
Computers are not magic.
I feel like people should already understand this when they clamor for RAW in a camera the size of a D90 or T2i, or when they yell for higher grade codecs via a firmware upgrade (really?).
I see a camera like this come out and I see progress. I don't understand the people who yell out "THEY CRIPPLED IT". They designed this camera to fill a niche in their lineup, that is not crippling it.
Computers are not magic.
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Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
But people have been doing great things with the 8 bit, h.264 encoded, pixel binned dslrs for some time now.
While I'd like 10 bit output, I think that those same people asking for it would ***** about how much more you'd have to pay to get it.
To think that it is simply a "firmware upgrade" is intellectually dishonest and shows a supreme lack of understanding of video engineering.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Steve, I'm not "defending" them, I'm answering your questions. You asked questions, and I'm giving you the answers as best I understand them.
That doesn't mean I agree with those answers, but it does mean that as an observer and contributor here, who's been reading their responses for 8+ years, I think I can repeat what they've said before.
Would I like AVC-Intra on SD cards? Of course -- I've been badgering them for it for 2+ years. But it's been explained to me that it's not going to happen, and I've tried to then explain to you why it isn't going to happen.
I'd love many things about the AF100 to be different -- I want it to be a P2/AVC-Intra camcorder with 10-bit output, I want a 2:1 sensor crop for using 16mm lenses, I want expanded/magnified focus, I want it to have an option to record the raw video in JPEG2000 instead of AVCHD. There are many things I wish they'd make.
But it isn't gonna happen. Not on this model. They conceived and executed and will deliver this thing in about one year's time. It is what it is. If you want something different, you may just have to start a wishlist for an "AF200".
But just because this isn't the end-all-be-all-everything-in-the-universe camera, doesn't mean that I can't evaluate it fairly and say that for the price, it >destroys< anything else on the market. Because it does. And I will happily use it for at least the next couple of years, and if something better comes along, then I can always sell and upgrade to the new one.
As has been said here -- people have been using 8-bit lousy-codec alias-hell no-audio DSLRs for a year or more, and some have produced amazing work with them. Practically >everything< on the AF100 is superior to practically >anything< on a DSLR. So even if it's not perfect (and it is far from perfect) it's still a huge step forward from where we are today. Hence the excitement.
Agree 100%. The "avchd" on the GH1 is an embarrassment to the name of AVCHD. They should have invested the extra dollars or time to put in a proper codec chip. And if they had, it's entirely possible that they would have a much larger share of the DSLR market than they do. So it's really their loss, and one they seem to have recognized and rectified in the GH2.
From our perspective, yes it is. But from their perspective, it was vital. A hacked GH1 is not a stable product, it crashes. Yet it bears the Panasonic name, and they get the calls from the customers and have to invest resources and time and energy and effort in servicing issues and problems that, by design, shouldn't have been theirs to bear in the first place. As hobbled as the codec was, at least it didn't cause write errors and seize the camera up. And they don't like their name associated with crashing/seizing products.
My solution that I offered them was simple - I asked Vitaliy if he could put in a warning message at the boot-up sequence, something that says something like "warning - this camera is using non-Panasonic-approved firmware, and crashing, lost footage or other side effects may occur. The warranty is voided by using this firmware." If they would cooperate with him and provide him the capability to do that, then we could all have had our cake and eaten it too. But that didn't happen.
No, because you're trying to isolate a codec out of a system. They don't make codecs. They make systems. And in that system, P2 = intraframe high-quality professional codecs, and SD = long-GoP codecs. That is the way their mindset works. Will it ever change? Maybe. I hope so, I'd like to see AVC-I on SDXC if it can be done reliably. It used to infuriate me that Sony would put their lame XDCAM-EX 35mbps 4:2:0 codec on their memory cards, and kept their higher-end 50mbps 4:2:2 codec for optical discs. What logic does that make? The cards are capable of 800mbps transfer rates, why not put the better codec on the card? But they wouldn't and didn't, not even in the $20,000 PMW-350. I guess that was their "system" - memory cards were for the low-end CMOS camcorders, and optical disc was for the high-end camcorders, and so optical disc got the better codec. Makes no sense to me, but that's the way it was. Eventually they relented and put the new 50mbps codec on the new memory-card-recording PMW500.
So is it possible Panasonic will change their policy and add AVC-I to the SDXC lineup? I certainly hope it's possible. But if not, I'd be just as happy with a P2 version of the AF100.
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Melvin Harris
Black Flag Member
+1
I don't understand how people can make a judgment based on absolutely nothing. No one has even touched the camera at full spec, so how can people find so much to complain about?
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
BobDiaz
The Professor
I think you hit upon a basic truth here, IF Panasonic had made the camera with 10 bit output and P2, we'd hear nothing but endless gripes that the cost is way too high. Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't logic. :violin:
If the camera don't fit what you wanted, get something else....
Bob Diaz
James Bridges
Well-known member
This is my first post, so I apologize if this has been brought up before.
I am an HDX900 owner am I worried about not using my $40k rig anymore- not hardly.
As stated before, do not buy the camera if you do not think it will 1. Make your money back within a year or 2. Will not satisfy you artistically.
Quite frankly, the way things are going-smaller, better, cheaper I really an looking forward to the future.
I have been investing over the years in quality accessories ie matteboxes, follow focus,etc. To carry me from camera to camera. So far a good businesss decision.
I think Panasonic has hit a homerun on this one, providing the picture is as good as they say (I sure it will be). I cannot wait to attach my Nanoflash.
I am an HDX900 owner am I worried about not using my $40k rig anymore- not hardly.
As stated before, do not buy the camera if you do not think it will 1. Make your money back within a year or 2. Will not satisfy you artistically.
Quite frankly, the way things are going-smaller, better, cheaper I really an looking forward to the future.
I have been investing over the years in quality accessories ie matteboxes, follow focus,etc. To carry me from camera to camera. So far a good businesss decision.
I think Panasonic has hit a homerun on this one, providing the picture is as good as they say (I sure it will be). I cannot wait to attach my Nanoflash.
Yes and I can appreciate the difference, but I got in a debate with some beeb engineers that maintain long-gop MP2 is good for aquisition and is more efficient than AVC-I.
The Canon is approved for HD at the BBC.
Now for me, no contest, CF is awful. And I couldn't care for MP2 but it's got them all excited over at DV Doctor.
Peter J. DeCrescenzo
Veteran
From what I hear, not exactly. At the BBC it can be on a somewhat tense case-by-case basis, and subject to internal debate.
For example, see:
http://www.definitionmagazine.com/journal/2010/9/3/bbcs-green-light-for-dslrs-is-on-hold.html
http://www.definitionmagazine.com/j...e-and-aliasing-issues-disappear-in-grade.html
But, yes, DSLR video is getting broadcast worldwide, even on various BBC channels, but it's not all smooth sailing, so to speak.
speedjunkie
Well-known member
So, Barry.. Would You say the AF100 is worth it and if you had a choice and money is not a problem would you get
A red one
or af100 with great lenses..
Im at a Cross roads. I Like the outlook of this camera but RED is Tried and Field tested in Cinema..
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Barry_Green
Moderator
It depends on your needs. If you are looking solely for a digital cinema camera, and money is no object, I'd go with the Alexa. If money is an issue but extends far enough to afford a Red with the M-X sensor, then yeah, obviously as a solely digital cinema product the Red is a superior product.
If money is an object, then clearly the $5,000 AF100 will have a lot of sway over a $30k Red kit. And if you need a video camera too, the AF100 does that job.
If money is an object, then clearly the $5,000 AF100 will have a lot of sway over a $30k Red kit. And if you need a video camera too, the AF100 does that job.
GRENCH
Well-known member
Yes, You get that through SDI outputting to an external nano type recorder that will give you 4:2:2 I believe.
I own a RED ONE. (The Only RED camera available in Sri Lanka).
I also own EX1/EX3 cameras.I have been working with EX1/EX3 materials (4:2:0 Long GOP) for the past two years and have done a lot of FX work that needed Tracking and Green Screen. All of these were transfered to 35 mm for theatrical projection. Although we use AdvanEdge for most of the time., for a recent job we used KeyLight with very good results. All those were for 35 mm blow ups.
Visit the Convergent Design site and download the sample mov/mxf files with varying bit rates. from 35 mbts 4:2:0 to 200mbts 4:2:2
It is good to have a 4:2:2 Large Sensor camera for US$ 5,000/- , but 4:2:0 is not a deal breaker for me if this cam out resolves or equals EX1/EX3 (1000+ lines)
I also own EX1/EX3 cameras.I have been working with EX1/EX3 materials (4:2:0 Long GOP) for the past two years and have done a lot of FX work that needed Tracking and Green Screen. All of these were transfered to 35 mm for theatrical projection. Although we use AdvanEdge for most of the time., for a recent job we used KeyLight with very good results. All those were for 35 mm blow ups.
Visit the Convergent Design site and download the sample mov/mxf files with varying bit rates. from 35 mbts 4:2:0 to 200mbts 4:2:2
It is good to have a 4:2:2 Large Sensor camera for US$ 5,000/- , but 4:2:0 is not a deal breaker for me if this cam out resolves or equals EX1/EX3 (1000+ lines)
speedjunkie
Well-known member
I looked at the Alexa, 70k is a bit much but that seems to be the One that is setting the Transitional marks for moving away from FILM.
I think Im going to Get the af100 to ENHANCE the DSLRS I already Own, but dont know ,, Hmm RED or ALEXA. ..
thanks for the Reply Berry
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