Advice for my effects gathering/field recording package...

factor

factor

Member
I need to assemble a modest recording package for field recording and effects gathering. I may be using the same recorder to do location sound eventually but for now the priority is recording SFX, both indoors and outdoors. The only part of the kit I'm 100% sure about is the recorder itself, the Tascam HD-P2, which is the best I can afford. So, I have some questions:

-Is PortaBrace the best option for a bag or are there other fitted bags out there?

-Considering I only have the budget to buy one single mic for now, what makes the most sense -- shotgun, hyper, or single-point stereo? (I will get more mics eventually but that could be several months away.)

-What would be the smartest wind protection and shock mounting for said mic, bearing in mind that I will be using it outside but I will not be swinging it around on a boom pole?

-Is there any reason why I should be using a boom pole (instead of something like this), even though there will not be a frame for me to stay out of?

I'll start with those.
 
factor said:
Is there any reason why I should be using a boom pole (instead of something like this), even though there will not be a frame for me to stay out of?
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You'll probably want to pack both a light boom pole and a pistol grip when you head out recording effects. Pistol grips are handy because they're light and compact (handy for car interiors). The down side to pistol grips is right there in the name: they make the mic look like a gun. When in a public space, pistol gripped handheld mics tend to ratchet up the ambient anxiety level. Police also get concerend when they see someone strapped with electronic devices and wires, waving a gun-shaped object around.

On the other hand, boom poles make you look like an ENG sound guy whose wanderred off from the rest of the camera crew. Either way, you're going to be noticed, but I'd rather have people ask me "what TV station will this be on" than tell me to "drop the gun and put your hands on your head."

Boom poles are also handy because you can rest the butt of the pole on you're toe-cap and give your arms a break during those 3-minute atmospheric recordings.

Consider also getting a lightweight camera tripod and a thread adapter (to attach your shockmount/pistol grip to the camera mounting plate). They're far less expensive than a boom pole, and are both sturdier and lighter than most mic stands.
 
Good point about drawing attention. Hadn't thought about that. Maybe a camcorder monopod would suit my needs, as far as making me appear more legit and making extended recordings less taxing on the arms.

So... anybody have advice for me about which type of mic I should go for first? I'm looking for versatility here, so I can cover the most possible bases until I have enough cash to expand my arsenal.
 
I don't know what to tell you about the mic... I have some opinions, but I'm more worried that you're not going to have adequate SUPPORT GEAR.

Your mic really depends on the support. You need to budget for a shockmount and windscreen. Since it's an outdoor mic I'd probably consider something a little more guaranteed then a foam... at the very least a softie type screen.

If you want a mic grip similar to the Remote Audio Grip (google it) for a third of the price you can have one of mine via USPS for $12 total. I've got about 12 of them left and I will let any DVXuser have one for that price until they're gone.
 
My budget isn't that tight considering what I need. But the idea is that I want to buy good stuff, that I won't just end up replacing as soon as I have some serious money to work with. If I went the hypercardioid route I'd probably get an Oktava MK012a, a BBG with jammer, and either a K-SSM or a Sabra-Som SSM-1. If I went with a shotgun I'd probably get an AT-4073a and a Rycote softie/pistolgrip package, although I'd also consider the 897 or an NTG-1. If I went with a stereo mic I'm not sure what I'd get for support but I'd lean towards the NT4.

So my problem isn't really knowing what to look for in each mic category. It's knowing which mic category will provide me the most mileage during the months when that one mic is all I've got to work with. I'll be needing to do indoor and outdoor FX recording, studio Foley and ADR, and maybe VO as well, and I'm looking for a solution that doesn't suck terribly at any of those.
 
I'm a big fan of hyper-cardioids. The Oktava is one of my favorite bang-for-the-buck mics.

There are other options out there... but the Oktava seems to have evolved into a really safe option for such a low cost. Early versions had spotty quality control and random parts selection (in the event that a particular component ran out on the production line)... that led to people like Scott Dorsey coming up with mod instructions... so that Oktava owners could turn a reasonable mic into an arguably very decent mic... and over time it seems that somebody at Oktava decided to get serious about this mic and they have adopted most of those mods... and also raised the standards for quality control... to the point that today, you can be assured of getting an amazingly good performance for the price.

Recently some people talked about a mic with the potential of similar performance... with more included caps or at a lower cost... and also including a low-cut option built into the mic. This appeals to me very much, but there was also talk of some initial evolution issues not unlike Oktava's early days... so for now (MY opinion only) the Oktava is probably the safest option for a really low cost... and it's not like you're going to be looking for some way to unload this thing later... you can use it for a lot, from now on.
 
So, going on that recommendation (which the overwhelming majority of users on this forum seems to echo), my prospective recording package is shaping up like this:


Tascam HD-P2; $875, Oade Bros.
PortaBrace bag for the P2; $150+shipping, B&H
Oktava MK012A, Rycote BBG + Windjammer, cedar box; $406, SoundRoom
batteries, recharger and CF cards; about $190, NewEgg
K-Tek K-SSM; $118, Trew
OR
Sabra-Som SSM-1; $50, SoundRoom

Total cost of this, if I go the "cheap" route and get the Sabra-Som shockmount, is roughly $1680 plus the cost of cable and a handgrip. Yeowch.

They say you sell Star-Quad/Neutrik cable. How much for a 6' and a 30'?

Also, what's the deal with the more decked-out K-Tek handgrips like this or this? Are they really worth $50-80 more than the Remote Audio grips you're selling for $12?

And for that matter, is the K-SSM really worth $65 or so more than that Sabra-Som, in terms of actual shock insulation in the field?
 
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So, you need a general all-purpose mic for ADr, foley, VO and field effects? That's a tall order, and I don't know of any single mic that's ideal for all situations.

That said, the first mic I ever reach for (whether I'm in the foley studio or in a swamp wearing hip-waders) is the Sennheiser MKH416t. They're not cheap, although you shouldn't have too much difficulty finding a good used price. If you're ever out in the pouring rain for hours on end, you'll probably notice that the MKH series of mics shrug off humidity levels that would overwhelm other mics.

The NT4 mic is an interesting mic, and gives you plenty of bang for your buck. However, adequate wind protection could well cost more than the mic itself. The fixed 90 degree X-Y configuration simplifies setup, but X-Y is not always the ideal stereo technique for a given situation.

My advice is to buy the best general-use shotgun or hypercardiod mic that you can afford (after extensive research and testing), with an eye towards eventually adding a matching figure-8 mic for phase-coherent stereo. Just don't skimp on shock-mounting and wind protection. BBGs and softies are a more cost-effective alternative to full Rycote zepplins, but to my experience nothing quite beats a Rycote modular suspension with windscreen and windjammer. This is especially true if you plan on recording during high winds or other extreme weather conditions.

For most of the work I do, my mic kit consists of an MKH416t and MKH30 in an M-S configuration. I also bring like to bring along a few special-use mics, inluding a Sennheiser MKH816t long-shotgun, a Sennheiser MD421II dynamic mic, and an AKG D-112 dynamic kick-drum mic. The `816 is handy for its longer reach and better side rejection, and the two dynamic mics are useful for high SPL recording. The D-112 is particularly good at recording deep sub bass, although the unevenness of its frequency response makes it a very specialised tool.
 
Good point about the stereo. The value of the NT4 for me, despite its limitations, would be that I could pistol-mount it and wander the city, capturing odd sounds here and there in stereo, almost like an audio documentary type situation. But I guess that's more of a hobbyist thing than a pro thing so I probably shouldn't go that route at square one.

The 416 is out of my range at the moment, as is the Sanken CS-1. The 4073a is the highest I can go for a mic right now, and even that would really be pushing it.

Anyway, I don't need a mic that's ideal for all situations. Usable, not ideal.

Here's a more specialized question: What's worse -- recording indoor SFX with an 897, or recording outdoor effects with an MK012a (with all the recommended accessories)?
 
Hey I like your kit so far. Check these folks out at http://www.guygraphics.com/GGPROD-69.html. (Finally, a microphone boom system for the low budget filmmaker! The GG-14 is our longer boom pole (14-feet), it's able to hold heavy microphones with little flex. Our Pro Bundle includes the AT8410a shockmount with the GG-14.) You get a 14foot carbon pole with a shock mount for $129.00. Thats a great deal.
Good luck.
 
FYI, Gregg has a thread going trying to sell his used Schoeps MK41. Looks like it might be going fast but you might want to consider it. Ambient makes a great figure-8 mic for $500 that clips smartly on the back of just about any mic and still fits inside a zeppelin.

IMHO I would shell out the extra $68 for the Ktek shock mount. The rubber band style of Sabra is less secure then Ktek style and significantly less effective at damping shock. It has also been my experience that the Ktek bands have a much longer usuable life span then the rubber band style. I would be replacing the rubber bands at least once a year but I have had the Ktek GPS for around 3 or 4 years now and it's still as effective as it was day 1.

Cheers
 
I think the K-Tek grip you linked would be a great choice for pistol grip.

I hate to bring up Rycote... but for run 'n gun the rycote pistol grip is a pretty common item to see used handheld or on the end of a pole.

If you like the K-SSM then the K-Tek grip is a perfect mate... if you went with a complete Rycote suspension and grip (as in softie mount/grip) then you'd be okay also... obviously I like the K-Tek option better overall... but I like the actual grip that Rycote makes.

The other thing is that unless you're going with an Oktava you should get the KSM over the KSSM... the only reason to get the short mount is if you get the Oktava (or a sanken CS1... which I personally do not recommend).

In my current kit I have 2xKSSM, 1xRycote, and 1xSabraSom... I used to have full suspension and blimp (pre-modular style) but sold it around the time I sold my 416.

The KSSM and KSM are really nice. Like all K-Tek products they are of minimalist beauty... Manfred Klemme is the Frank Lloyd Wright of the location sound world.
 
2 matched oktava killers with 6 capsules 400us
with 2 small foams
2 prototipe complite zeppelines ( in 2 months on the web for much more) 31cm zeppelines with shock mounts -390 us$ ( no fur)
could acsept any mic till 22 cm
eargonizer 1 used by me for 2 weeks (prototype - front mixer position)-190 us$


shipping about 50us for all
 
factor said:
You make a good case for the K-SSM.

Anybody got an opinion on those K-Tek handgrips I linked?


Are you kidding?
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No I am not, like wabbit's signature says:

Cheap, fast, good. Pick any two. You did say "usable" and the H4 is a bit better than just usable. Quite a bit better. If you don't have a compunction about spending a couple hundred bucks on a mic (the Octava) and not feeling that you're "kidding around" (even though it does sound great, and is loved here), then the H4 should not be ruled out either.

I've got a Sound Devices 744T and a Deva and I picked up one of the H4's, for quick grabs of room tone and misc. and I use it FAR more than I thought I ever would. I've even used it for wild takes and some VO (have to angle the recorder about 45% off axis to get one mic center (then the other becomes MS - nice).

I'm going up to San Francisco today to record some kids for a large game company production I'm working on, and all I'm bringing is some sound deadening panels (trade show booth co.'s are great to buy light and portable ones from) and the H4. It's like a cellphone in make and durability (read: DO NOT DROP IT- EVER) but it sounds great.

If you'd like some samples, be glad to post them, once I get the time. I wanted to hate the thing too, and desipte the somewhat clumsy navigation, it's low price and plasticy feel, I love it.

If you need to feel more manly about it, grab one of these: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PCMD1d/

Otherwise I'd suggest a Sennheiser 416 & the NT4 (used on eBay) and your Tascam HDP2 and call it a day. I sold my HDP2 to pick up the 744. The NT4 is OK but sounds nearly identicle to the H4. BTW I've got an NT4 for sale.

I would not recommend the 4073a.

There are reasable blimp Senn knock-offs on eBay (I got a couple as a back-up). http://cgi.ebay.com/Blimp-Windkorb-...oryZ3319QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem you could modify one to fit the NT4 like I did. The blimps are perfectly fine, lightweight (if not lighter than the Senn) and even the synth fuzzy that comes with it works OK too. The guy is in India (hence the price I'm guessing), so you'll have to do the eBay thing, but I defy anyone to tell me the Sennheiser is better in any way.

The Octava's outside will be a nightmare of wind issues. I tried that many times and each time (even with the largest wind screens & BG's I could find) it was too much.
 
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I just did some quick research of the Zoom and it does seem much better than it should be for $300, but this...

http://www.transom.org/tools/recording_interviewing/200703_zoom_h4/audio/zoom_h4_breeze.mp3

...that could be the killer. I live in Chicago, by the way, which earns its namesake well.

I don't think there's a question that I will end up with a serious, well-built solid state recorder with clean pres and robust level control. Beyond the whole film sound thing, I am also an audio dork and a big fan of musique concrète, audio documentary and experimental recording. So even if no major Hollywood studio will ever be depending on me to turn in pristine 24/192 audio (a fairly safe bet, since I don't plan on moving to California), I will want a pro-level recorder for the versatility and durability which would extend past my professional life, into my life as a hobbyist and an enthusiast.

With that said, My projected budget of $1700-2000 is something that currently does not exist, as I only have about $800 saved at the moment. I expect that I could save enough to build a really solid HD-P2-based rig for mono FX recording within a few months' time, but I guess I could see myself buying a smaller $3-400 flash recorder as a quick fix to film sound issues that could crop up over the next few months, before I've taken the plunge. Maybe a small recorder could buy me the time to save up for a few extra months and get a 702T instead of the Tascam. Who knows?

But if that Zoom recorder is unusable in wind it's no good for me. (I assume there isn't any kind of higher-grade wind protection for the Zoom, right?) And it would also be unusable if its noise floor is too high to capture low-level wild sound, like Foley-type body movement stuff, and Samson doesn't even publish SNR specs for it (f***ers) so there's no way to tell. I suppose I could try to borrow someone else's.
 
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OK, the Zoom is out. I just took a 24/44.1 WAV clip from the O'Reilly review, threw it into PT, calibrated the session to a comfortable -20dBFS reference level, and listened to the clip. Unacceptable pre hiss. And this clip was recorded with a pair of AKG C1000S's positioned pretty close to a guitar, so the gain setting was likely pretty low. Sounded pretty damn good for $300, I'll admit, but it wouldn't even come close to working as my only solution for capturing low-level SFX, even for a few months. Maybe the internal mics are quieter but even $300 is too much for something that allows me no mic flexibility.

However, I'll say this: I might consider an H4 after I get a higher-quality rig, just to have something that I carry in my coat pocket at all times for grabbing interesting environmental sounds. That would be fun.
 
factor said:
However, I'll say this: I might consider an H4 after I get a higher-quality rig, just to have something that I carry in my coat pocket at all times for grabbing interesting environmental sounds. That would be fun.
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That's what I did.

The hiss thing - gotta know how to set the levels. The hiss is there but the pres sound good. Good, honest and with good character, which makes it work. I *DO* know what you mean as I heard the hiss too, but when I compared the same mics through my other two decks I was shocked.

Think about this, how many recordings do you miss (or will miss) when you didn't have time to set up *quickly* for that spur of the moment thing with reasonable recording gear? I did the kids today and got LOTS of stuff I might have missed due to time. Lots of stuff.

Keep in mind I don't care a rats about the H4, and the Zoom folks simply MUST be high to have configured this thing the way they did. I grabbed this UNTIL I could grab the Sony. I figured 6 weeks tops, then it'll crap out like every friggin' wireless house and cell phone does. After 6 months, it STILL has not. Eh, watta ya gonna do?

One of the memorable things I did with this damn thing was to tape it under the hood of numerous cars (and many other places on and around various cars, motorcycles, Jeeps etc...), for that "real" racing engine effect.

Keep in mind my stuff *does* get used in the major films and no one has complained about hiss. Even room tone and such. No complaints. Your worries are legit though and your point is perfectly well taken.

Those guitar tracks that guy did, sounded hissy but were gorgeous. Remember, you kind of have to consider the overal sound and character of a pre (like a mic) as well as its' spec.

Odds are the Oade Bros are on this and a mod just might be on the way. BTW, get 'em to modify your HDP2. Was going to do mine but decided to move on. Nice recorder, BTW, but it does suffer a little bit from the same issues (odd company, plasticy feel).

The Petrol bag guys for that would be my choice. I'm luvin' them guys more lately than the Portabrace folks.

Just some thoughts. All mileages will vary.
 
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