Acoustic Problems

K

Kugar13

Well-known member
Hello,

We are starting principle photography on a film in May. We visited two locations we have secured and discovered an alarming problem with the acoustics at both locations. As we anticipated there is a huge echo. Both locations have hard wood floors, vaulted ceilings, and no drapes/curtains. We are an indie film group with a very low budget, with this in mind what can we do to make these locations suitable, if anything? We are using a Sennheiser ME-66 with a windscreen, a Cavision windshield and windjammer. I am under the assumption, without bringing in rugs/carpet and putting up drapes, there isn't much we can do short of tacking up and laying down egg crate foam and the like. Any suggestions that we may have not thought of?


Much appreciated,

Kugar13
 
Well, you're ahead of 90% of indies -- at least you recognized the problem before shooting!

Echo is impossible to fix in post, so you have to address it beforehand. You can try to rig sound blankets etc, you can try to mic 'em with lavalieres in the hopes that it'll reduce the echo, but the question I'd have is: any chance you can replace the dialogue in post? Normally that's a last resort, but if you're looking at a nearly-impossible-to-get-it-right-on-set situation, you may have to consider that you'll *have* to replace the audio in a looping situation in post.

Echo comes from sound waves bouncing off hard surfaces, so putting things in there to absorb the sound waves helps control echo. A bare wood floor room will be more echo-y than a carpeted floor, etc. Furniture helps absorb sound waves and break up echo too. Furniture pads/sound blankets can help some...
 
Thank you

Thank you

Barry,

Thank you for your reply. I have a lot of respect for you and any advice you would give. Thank you so much!

Kugar
 
There are plenty of ways to treat a reverberant space. What confines you is how wide your shots are. If you can see the floor in the shot, there goes that treatment. If the space is small and your shots are wide, there goes most of your treatment for the parallel walls and corners.

Putting helim balloons on high vaulted ceilings is said to be effective (I have not tried this yet but others have and says it works great). Also, lose the ME66 for reverberant indoor spaces. You need a hypercardiod mic for reverberant indoors.

The closer you get the mic to the talent and further away from the reverb source will apply the inverse square rule and will greatly reduce the reverb that is recorded. As such, sometimes an omni lav can be better then a hyper boom if your shot is too wide and you can't get a boom in close.

Don't give up on getting the location sound. 99 times out of 100 I will take a partially muddy location track over a clean studio recorded ADR track.

Think creatively, can you work some carpet into the set design? If you can change your camera angles to get some treatment on parallel walls, this can make all the difference you need.

Good luck
 
Why are you even considering using a shotgun mic in that situation? That's the wrong mic to have on a boom. You want a hypercardioid. And if the space is live enough, and you can't get close enough, you have no recourse but to go to lavs.

Ty Ford
 
Wabbit, Tyreeford,

Thanks for the most helpful advice! I am working on getting Lavs and a number of things that will help me treat the location. I am so excited by the help the two of you, and Barry, has provided! I can't wait to revisit the location with my new bag of tricks!

Kugar
 
That could well be the worst mic on planet earth for a highly reverberrant space... seriously.

Even if you get the cheapest hyper you can you'll be stunned at the improvement.

Practice booming... the mic should ocassionally dip in the frame if you're low enough... also consider the type of action and how the people will move within this space... and how far apart they will be. It may even be possible to boom them with a cardioid... I get that mic out if I want to cover a larger group (3+ people) without too much boom movement.

I find reasons within a shot for good sound... just like I find reasons for good lighting. Have you ever noticed that in any movie that if I person walks with a lantern they hold it up by their face? You can't see sh*t like that... but it either lights the actor's faces OR it gives an excuse for the light that IS lighting their faces... that movie would be boring if you couldn't see the actors. How many low budget horror movies have people talking in front of the car headlights? Watch for it and you'll see that movies give an excuse to light what needs to be lit to make the movie enjoyable.

When you're on a low budget (key sentence here) then you can do the same thing with sound. Consider your scene and what you need to do for adequate sound... within reasonable limits you can direct the action to help sound.

Just as a light needs to be present when it's dark... a mic must ALWAYS be CLOSE or else your sound track will be dark and boring... often times I think the story is made better by these considerations anyway. Let's say you have two guys arguing in front of the cam... you've got them boomed with one mic no problem... then the one guy walks across the room to stare out the window as the argument continues... maybe you wanted to keep the cam in the original location for all of it... can you boom them both? Can you shoot the scene twice and get a boom over the other guy? Can you run a seperate plant mic up behind the curtains so that he is actually walking TO the other mic... where he will continue the argument from across the room? Can you shoot the scene from this cam perspective and then shoot it again from his with the other actor now in the distance... like a two-shot?

There are lots of ways around sound problems just as there are lots of ways around lighting problems... but the most important thing to remember is that mics gotta' be CLOSE for good dialog!

Although you're gonna' be surprised at just how much improvement you'll get just by trying a different mic in that space.
 
I'm surprised Matt didn't mention it - The (cheap) different mic in that space to try is an Oktava hyper.

Matt - excellent points about the lantern example. If only the (indie) director would listen...
 
Hmm... an Oktava hyper... that is a good idea. (please read with humorous sarcasm)



I get tired of sounding like a broken record... so thanks for sparing me another spin... but now I must add my standard endorsement anyway...

The Oktava has been called the poor man's Schoeps... and I agree that it is. If it wasn't so cheap I wouldn't talk it up so much... if it didn't sound as good as it does I wouldn't talk it up so much... but the fact remains that the Oktava is good and it is cheap... I strongly doubt that it will ever be knocked off the pinnacle of the price versus performance summit.

Kugar13... get this and enter coupon code "DV" at checkout... and you will join the masses (including myself) who are continuously surprised at just how capable this little mic is for interiors. Just don't put on the -10db cap unless you're recording a live band or something else super loud.

You will still need a good shockmount... the Sabra Som is a good little mount for only $49, just be sure to ask for the 5/8 to 3/8 adapter... and you'll also need a windscreen. If you want to read more about the Oktava, shockmounts, or windscreens then the audio forum is bursting at the seams with info on all of this.
 
Matt, I think you just need to put it in your sig - add all your recommendations for gear and why they need it and how to use and that they should get a sound guy, etc.

Then again, even if you did, the questions would still get asked :)
 
MattinSTL said:
Hmm... an Oktava hyper... that is a good idea. (please read with humorous sarcasm)



I get tired of sounding like a broken record... so thanks for sparing me another spin... but now I must add my standard endorsement anyway...

The Oktava has been called the poor man's Schoeps... and I agree that it is. If it wasn't so cheap I wouldn't talk it up so much... if it didn't sound as good as it does I wouldn't talk it up so much... but the fact remains that the Oktava is good and it is cheap... I strongly doubt that it will ever be knocked off the pinnacle of the price versus performance summit.

Kugar13... get this and enter coupon code "DV" at checkout... and you will join the masses (including myself) who are continuously surprised at just how capable this little mic is for interiors. Just don't put on the -10db cap unless you're recording a live band or something else super loud.

You will still need a good shockmount... the Sabra Som is a good little mount for only $49, just be sure to ask for the 5/8 to 3/8 adapter... and you'll also need a windscreen. If you want to read more about the Oktava, shockmounts, or windscreens then the audio forum is bursting at the seams with info on all of this.
Click to expand...
MattinSTL

Thank you for your help! I am very thankful you are eager to help others! I have read many of your posts on dvxuser and am quite impressed with your knowledge, as well as how modest you are about the wealth of knowledge you have. Thank you again for helping me and others.

Your friend,

Kugar
 
kidtexas said:
I'm surprised Matt didn't mention it - The (cheap) different mic in that space to try is an Oktava hyper.

Matt - excellent points about the lantern example. If only the (indie) director would listen...
Click to expand...
Kidtexas

I agree the lantern example is a great suggestion. MattinSTL's suggestion has already led to many changes in my shot list and floor plan, allowing me to take advantage of his wonderful advice.

This (Indie) director knows how to listen to great advice.

Kugar
 
kidtexas said:
Matt, I think you just need to put it in your sig - add all your recommendations for gear and why they need it and how to use and that they should get a sound guy, etc.

Then again, even if you did, the questions would still get asked :)
Click to expand...
I guess I need to apologize for asking a question. I am truly sorry that I have yet again asked a question, after much research and searching, that has been asked and answered many-many times. I am very thankful there are people out there who still take the time to answer these questions, regardless of how many times they have been asked. I am also equally thankful that there are people that ignore the same old questions asked every day, opposed to posting rude comments...
 
Hey, just making a little joke. We ask questions so we can learn. There's a great group here that will answer just about any question asked, even if it's been asked a million times before. Heck, that's why I pitched in what I could...
 
kidtexas said:
Hey, just making a little joke. We ask questions so we can learn. There's a great group here that will answer just about any question asked, even if it's been asked a million times before. Heck, that's why I pitched in what I could...
Click to expand...
I apologize for the mis understanding on my behalf. =)
 
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