About to go on my first audio equipment splurge

H

HansSteinert

Well-known member
Hey all, I'm a young and aspiring filmmaker. I don't know much about sound, but I understand the importance of it. Absolutely critical, and if I want my stuff to turn out well, sound is something I really need to nail. I've been reading a lot of the informative threads to learn as much as I can about audio. I'm looking to be able to produce DSLR shot films that sound as professional as possible. I know a lot of this has to do with work flow and post production, and that's something I will have to master. But right now, I'm looking at the hardware.

I know there's a nice sticky at the top regarding equipment, but it seems to be several years old and there might be better budget choices currently. Basically, I'm starting from scratch with around $1,000 - $2,000 dollars, and would like some insight on what equipment I should purchase for professional dialogue recording for both inside and outside environments while I film, and Foley capturing.

For recording hardware, I keep hearing about the Zoom H4N. Is that a good purchase, or are there better alternatives? What about microphones, wind screeners, poles for holding the equipment, ect.

Excuse my ignorance if I appear that way, there's a ton too learn about sound and I'm still a nooby at it... which is why I could really use your help. If you need me to be more specific in my needs, I can, but I'd like the kit I purchase to be as versatile as possible in controlled environments.

As for uncontrolled environments, I plan on buying a nice shotgun mic to mount on my camera for "run-and-gun" documentary shooting. If you guys have a recommendation for that, feel free to shoot that at me... although right now I'm siding with the Rode NTG-2.
 
I have sold tons of audio packages for people just in your situation when I worked at Coffey Sound, I can say that right now your budget is too low for recording double system with DSLR. You basically need to approach it like they used to do film, because the DSLR camera does not have timecode capability, and getting sync is important. The DSLR shoots that I've seen guys used a timecode recorder with a smart slate for sync purposes, and those two things right there are above your budget if you want to buy. If you want to rent, that's another story. You can go really old school and not use timecode and just use a dumb slate, but you may have sync issues later on depending on your equipment. The best thing to do with that money is to hire a sound person with gear that knows how to use it.
 
How much are we estimating for the total package? Just because my current budget is 1-2k, doesn't mean I can't use that money and simply save for another year in order to buy something that will get the job done. I want to be able to rely on myself as much as possible for this sort of stuff.
 
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One thing you (and others in your situation) should determine is exactly how many films you intend on shooting. If you're doing a feature, how many days are you going to be in production? If your doing shorts, ask yourself the same thing. It really may make more sense to hire someone to handle sound.

Anyhow, $1000 to $2000 is going to have to be $2000. The H4n is okay, but you should aim higher. At the end of the day, it's a total consumer level device.

Fostex FR2-LE $600
Sound Devices Mixpre $665
Petrol PS607 $140
NTG-2 $270
Rycote 19 - 22mm Softie $110
Rode SM3 $50
K-Tek KE-89 $157

...never mind. What David said.
 
So you're saying that the kit you mentioned above isn't even worth it?

Ok, if you were me and you were destined to get acceptable sound, how much money would you invest? I'm not looking to make the next Hollywood film by myself, I just want the ability to make short films that appear reasonably professional in video and audio design.
 
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Hi Mr. Hans,

Gathering from your posts, are you seriously interested in the sound field and continue down this path as a career or are you looking to buy up audio equipment and have someone else run it for you? You've just started out in this film world and there's a lot of learning curve within all departments even for sound on set. A) I suggest starting out small and buying equipment at incremental steps. Learn and invest as you go. B) Team up with another person who's also very interested in continuing this field so that both you and him/her are on the same page.

What's your goal?
 
Alan, my passion is writing, directing, cinematography, video editing, and motion graphics. I want to be able to make short films with my friends and local talent without relying on other people's equipment. Ideally, I would have a friend run my sound equipment, and I would tell him exactly what to do while I film. I know good sound equipment isn't cheap, so I have 1-2k for it right now.

My goal is to eventually be on a big team where I have dedicated professionals in their respected categories, but as a current up-and-comer, I feel the burden is on me to learn everything and try to produce as professional content as possible on my own. And given how essential high quality and professionally edited audio is to film, I know this aspect is something I cannot neglect.

What equipment would you recommend starting out with? An H4N, a nice boom mic, wind screeners, and a pole for holding the equipment?
 
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Hans, what camera are you shooting with, and what kind of films do u want to do? For Indy films a zoom is ok, but edirol or sound deVices are much better quality, less harsh, better preamps. That will blow your budget right there. But they are worth the money!Some kind of field mixer really helps control sound off camera, and can make a cheaper camera seem much better. I own a mixpre and love it. Essential gear. High quality mics will always help. I've probably spent $2k on my Sound gear alone. But it all comes back to your goal. I have dual channel lavs, shotguns, dynamic handheld And oktavas. All adds up to greatly improved sound, but i still hire a sound eng. For live recordings of musicians when the budget allows.

As far as Dave's comment, I routinely shoot three camera or two with only manual sync in post, not even plural eyes. It's doable. You don't need time code for many situations. Nice to have though! Get one of those $60 clapboards. Works wonders. Always keep the cameras running throughout the take to simplify editing. You can always cut out a b cam shot or a bad zoom.

And buy good lunches for the crew!
 
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I'm shooting with a Canon 60D. The films I do will be indy for now. I will not have a studio or sponsor behind me or anything. Just me, my friends as actors and assistants, and the hopes of making something relatively professional that others can enjoy. And for me personally, the hopes of making stuff that's professional enough to impress any future job employers in this field. Despite it being just me and my friends, we are going to be taking it seriously and want as professional results as possible. We are willing to work for it, but we still need some equipment.

I don't mind the inconvenience of having to sync manually in post because I'm doing this work for myself, not for a paying client with an exact deadline.
 
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One advice I would give is to not micro-manage every department. It will burn you once the opportunity comes, jack of all trades master of none. Instead, try to find another group of people who are also passionate about their work and collab with each other. Filmmaking is all about teamwork and team effort. I also sometimes feel that I'm burdened to do everything myself, but have learned not to get overwhelmed over small details and team up with people I know and trust to split the workload.

Are you prepared to accept any damamges done by your friend who is a non-professional by standards and running your sound equipment on set to record dialogue? Would you also give space to your friendly sound department in order for them to get the best dialogue possible at any given time even though they've made a mistake both big and small? Lots of questions and politics involved, but make you you're prepared for the unexpcted events when something arises on your set with your own equipment.

Sam Mallery has already listed a good set of equipment to start.

Here's my list.
A.
Zoom H4n $300
Sound Devices Mixpre $650
Rode NTG3 $600
Rycote INV7 shockmount $60
K-Tek KE110 $200
Rycote S330 $300
Song MDR7506 headphones $90
$2200

B) Drop the Mixpre and go straight into the H4n, some sacrifices, but keeps your money way down. $1,550
C) Drop the INV7 shockmount, Mixpre, and change NTG3 to the Audio-Technica AT4053b (drops $100). $1,300
D) Drop everything and just have your Zoom H4n, Rode NTG3, and Rycote INV7 shockmount. Can't really use this outdoors with some slight wind. ~$1k
 
Your 600's would sound more natural, but not by much. I'll hear them if I was on your set. Stick with them until you could get a closed set.
 
I know everyone has a different stance on the audio debate, but I don't think there is anything wrong with having your own sound setup and don't let anybody convince you otherwise. There is no reason to hire out a sound guy on your own or small productions with clients not providing budgets for it. So many people act like your intention is to get out there and make the next Hollywood blockbuster with a 60d. Umm, no. Personally, I do a lot of corporate promos and local commercials. I do my own camera work (with a 60d as well), my own lighting and what do you know, my own sound too. I have never had one complaint with my sound, ever. In fact, I have received many compliments. I have been doing sound in general since 1992 (live sound for concerts and productions) and sound for video since 1999.

I have twice owned the Zoom h4n. It was ok. I thought it did a decent job for what it was, but later elected to sell it and get a Tascam DP-008 Pocket Studio that I really like. I use a couple of Audio Technica studio mics for the sound I need, usually on a tripod just in front of the talent, client or person being interviewed and usually indoors. It works great, especially when I am interviewing multiple people, I don't have to keep changing a Lav. With the Tascam, I have quite a bit of control over my sound from the beginning, but it sounds pretty decent out of the box. I want it to sound good, but I am not trying to win awards with it. I believe in doing thing well and this works VERY well, for me.

Headphones, I use Audio Technica's. I love Sennheisers. Sony's work well. I have a set of Shure in Ears if I need to get ultra portable.

For your budget, you can easily get some quality starter gear and build from there, but your starter stuff will be great for most situations. So don't listen to the "you gotta hire everything out" guys. If and when you get into a big budget situation, cross that bridge when you need to. Until then, you'll own a nice little sound package.
 
HansSteinert said:
I'm not looking to make the next Hollywood film by myself, I just want the ability to make short films that appear reasonably professional in video and audio design.
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This says it all to me.
There is no reason for 2 grand you shouldn't be able to get audio to that level.
Of course you will have to make compromises in order to put the majority of your money in 1-2 pieces of "better" gear.

Think about what types of movies you want to make, can you get away with not having to use wireless microphones?
If you think so you can put more money into a quality boom mic.

- Boom mic
- Shock mount
- Wind protection (Softie config to save money)
- Boom pole (couple hundred bux for a K-tek or likewise aluminum pole)
- XLR cable
- Headphones
- Recorder

Try to buy as much stuff used as you can.
The recorder mangler is selling is a good example that you can get a decent recorder for not too too much used.
Put the majority of the remaining money into a good mic.


I'm personally a gear snob, I love high end equipment as much as the next guy but there is a difference between being a career sound guy
and the quality level expected, the situations encountered, etc and someone who wants to make his own no-budget style movies.
 
It's a question of what you are trying to accomplish. Are you trying to make "festival worthy" shorts, or are these for your own personal gratification and/or education?

If the latter is the case, and the friends/associates who make up your crew have little or no audio experience, I would probably not spend huge amounts of money on audio gear just yet. Using even micro-budget prosumer gear like the Rode NTG-2 and the Zoom H4n requires some knowledge and skill to obtain satisfactory results. So I would recommend (which sort of goes against the grain, for me) getting something like the Rode VideoMic Pro ($230) and the Zoom H2 ($140). You can DIY a boom-pole, but buying a good quality boom-pole now is an investment in your future. The Rode VMP will be much more forgiving than a "pro" shotgun mic, and will sound better indoors. It can also be plugged into your DSLR when you start using better audio gear for a better quality sync/scratch track.

Having said that, I highly recommend that you look for an up-and-coming production sound guy/gal who, just like you, is looking to gain knowledge and experience. You will start building that core group who will be your collaborators for years to come, and get much better audio from the word go - or "Action!" if you prefer. If you go this route your notional sound person should have some of their own gear, and you could use your budget to fill in the gaps; good quality accessories like blimps and boom poles are investments, they can be used with cheap or expensive gear, and even relatively inexpensive mics retain their value much better than audio recorders, or cameras, for that matter.

If you are looking to make festival worthy projects then retain an experienced sound person, even an up-and-comer. More good projects have been ruined by poor sound than for any other reason, and many of those audio problems cannot be fixed in audio post. ADR is a poor substitute for a wonderful on-set performance, and lack of attention to capturing quality production sound will almost mandate the crappy ADR solution.

And no matter what your current goals you should begin thinking about sound during preproduction. Scout locations with sound in mind as well as the look. If certain sounds are required for the project be sure to establish them in your shots or with B-roll. As with visuals you should be shooting audio with post/editing in mind.

Sound is half of the experience.​
 
Noticed the H4n being mentioned alot throughout this post.

For a bit extra i would suggest the Tascam DR-100 its only a little extra and its a far superior recorder.
 
I too say the DR-100 is the better choice over the H4N. Same price - about 300.00. But really I'd jump on that FOSTEX FR2LE.

Budget minded people are happy with the Rode mics. NTG-2 for 269.00, but I'd say go for the NTG-3 for 600-700.00. You'll want a decent hyper for indoor. I always suggest the AT4053b, as the best bang for your buck, and best sounding at about 430.00 at B&H. That leaves roughly 500.00 for cans (Sony MDR-7506 for 80 bucks at B&H) and cables and a boom pole. When you need cheap wireless, go no cheaper than the Sennheiser G3 wireless for 600.00.

Mixer - OOPS! The MixPre is soooooo sweet, but short of that the JuicedLink JL-DT454 is very clean and very nice, only no limiters. Look up all this stuff at DVeStore and see what Guy can do for you if you're buying all at once. You can use coupon code "take5" and get 5% off, which is substantial with a large purchase. I'd say 3,000.00 will get you rolling with reasonable decent sound.

And IMO --- SOUND IS 70% of the EXPERIENCE.
 
Chadfish said:
And IMO --- SOUND IS 70% of the EXPERIENCE.
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even more!

I honestly would rather have someone with 20 years experience flying a $200 dollar mic on the end of a broom pole with no headphones
than someone with a few months of experience with the best package in the entire world if it was my production.
 
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