FrameFarmMedia
Veteran
What is the title of this thread?
F3: A tough one... Amira or F3/FS7
- Thread starter VinceinLA
- Start date
What is the title of this thread?
VinceinLA,
You hide behind an anonymous screen name, you have no links to your work or anything about you. Many of us, myself included, have our names (Gene Can-Shen Sung) and links to our URLs below so we visible and are more accountable for what we say. You can say whatever you want because nobody knows who you are.
You post the question in the TITLE “Amira or F3/FS7,” yet when anyone mentions the benefits of an FS7 you vehemently shoot them down as you have in numerous other threads. It’s obviously you don’t like the FS7 as you’ve mentioned it numerous times, so why is it in consideration at all?
There are cameras that I don’t prefer and I might mention it a few times here and there; yet I’m not sitting in a forum angrily denouncing the camera over and over. What does that really accomplish? Nothing.
You will love the Alexa. Just use it. You'll be happy.
cuervo
Veteran
oh puhleeze. We're all adults here, aren't we? Sometime I wonder. If something someone writes gets your goat....who's issue is it...i mean REALLY? What's to be gained by confrontation? We all have our opinions..and, in the end, that's what this is...an opinion board. To take anything...or anyone, to task , is well.....boring.
DendriteStudios
Active member
I guess the term film look isn't the right term. You can get "top end" "high end" "film" or "commercial" or "documentary" or "music video" results on the fs7. Whatever the right term is. It is possible. Would it be my first choice if the project had heaps of budget? Hell no. You are absolutely right that the Alexa makes a better image for fictional cinema, but that doesn't mean you cannot get really, really good results with the fs7. Cameras are like film stocks, they each have a look that can be manipulated in many different ways. And yes I've shot on almost every camera on the market and have shot plenty of film. I'm plenty familiar.
In fact for documentaries in remote locations where lightweight and low power draw were concerns I would choose the fs7 every time over an Amira. If those were not concerns I would choose an Amira every time over an fs7. No camera is perfect, they are just different, but every one discussed in this thread can deliver "high end" results.
I just shot the fs7 for the last month on a documentary and the two months before that I was shooting on an Epic Mx for a one hour tv network doc. Man the changing batteries alone is a major time saver on the fs7, which allows me to get more shots and more coverage, and that was a major benefit on the type of project I was just on.
eddavid
Carbonite Member
nice - the alexa mini is going to be the "it" camera of the next two years. Sorry Amira owners. smaller, less weight.
that's why I don't buy high end cameras - its a better investment to buy lenses - those at least hold value for 5-30 years.
but hey if you can pay it off in less than a year get it!
that's why I don't buy high end cameras - its a better investment to buy lenses - those at least hold value for 5-30 years.
but hey if you can pay it off in less than a year get it!
Harry Lime
Well-known member
With all due respect to your experience as a DoP, I think there is little doubt that the Alexa gets more exposure range than the F35.
There are multiple tests on CML that clearly show the capabilities of the Alexa in this area and demonstrate its smooth highlight roll off.
Since it's a RAW camera what in camera controls would you like to see beyond the green/magenta shift?
I'm very fond of the F35 image and think it is a very underrated camera that unfortunately did not see the widespread use it should have,
but I'm not sure I agree with your assessment.
Harry Lime
Well-known member
Well, actually you can define the 'film look' in technical terms, which is basically what Arri did with the Alexa. Lore has it that when they asked DoP's what they wanted in a digital cinema camera the answer was a digital incarnation of Vision film stock. And that is basically what Arri tried to deliver. You have to keep in mind that Arri used to make the Arri Laser Scanner and Recorder, so they had already spend 10-15 years quantifying film stocks in mathematical term. The look of film has many characteristics like how saturation levels off at some point and no longer increases with brightness. I'm pretty certain that Arri implemented a dual gain read on the sensor receptors not just to capture more exposure range, but also to emulate the soft roll off that is found in film. And the list goes on and on
Incredibly no other manufacturer, except maybe Aaton, has taken this approach and certainly not Sony. Hopefully the rest of the industry will wake up to this someday and shake their broadcast roots.
Harry Lime
Well-known member
By the way, Ed, if you can get hold of a D16 with a PL mount in New York give it a try.
Coming from the CCD F35 I would be very curious to hear what you think of it. It's a very interesting little camera.
I can post you to the proper procedure for getting the files in to Davinci for grading.
Coming from the CCD F35 I would be very curious to hear what you think of it. It's a very interesting little camera.
I can post you to the proper procedure for getting the files in to Davinci for grading.
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steve phillipps
Veteran
Bu there is a pleasant, humble, respectful and professional way of stating thoughts and opinions though - some people don't seem to be able to manage it.
Steve
eddavid
Carbonite Member
I throw out most dynamic range below middle grey so it doesnt matter to me. Im not into milky blacks.
Im not interested in the db16 for ergonomic reasons and space storage reasons but i may as well give it a try. Also its dynamic range feels even more limited in highlight handling than the f35 and seems to have more noise. But it is worth doing a test.
Also just saw alexa mini is more like 60k once you get what you need to make it work. Just like the amira.
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cuervo
Veteran
I've been pricing together a basic Alexa and the Weapon camera kit since I'm probably going to be making a major purchase. With the Mini, I think you need a few basic rigging parts (like the Tripod mount for the bottom), but then you can largely get away with your own rigging parts whereas the Amira (correct me if I'm wrong Nate) seems to need more of the proprietary parts. These price break downs are taking into consideration I already have a good deal of adaptable rigs and several V-Mounts.
For the Mini, apparently Arri worked with the makers of the Starlite OLED to have it control the camera as a much cheaper way to control with camera than the Arri EVF / LCD. It's $3000 with the Loupe.
The Amira you can get now, I was told the Mini is shipping soon but will be hard to get until the end of the year. The Mag Weapon is probably early 2016 when they finish the current upgrades. The Amiras seems to be priced pretty good right now since the official Arri EVF ($7000) is included.
I love the Alexa image the best, but the one thing that kind of worries me is that sensor is 5 years old and there are rumors of a new one coming which would could seriously devaluate the current models. The Red is kind of nice in that you can upgrade the camera. Pluses and minus to all.
Alexa Mini Kit
- Body $45,000
- Lens Mount $1700
- Starlite EVF or SmallHD $3000 or $1500
- Cards 3 x 128gigs $1500
- Rig $300
- Cables / Misc $500
- Battery Plate $300
- Swit V x 2 $400
Total: $52,700 with Starlite Monitor / camera control or
$51,200 with SmallHD and use buttons on body
----------------
Arri Amira - Mid Tier option
- Body + EVF included $40,000
- Lens Mount $1700
- Arri Rig $744
- Arri Quick Release $940
- Arri Battery Plate $540
- Cards $1500
- Cables / Misc $500
- Swit V x 2 $400
Total: $46,324
----------
Red Weapon
- Weapon Magnesium $34,500
- Base Expander $1750
- Side Handle or Sidekick $1150
- Canon Mount $700
- 2 SSD = 512 gig $2800
- Swit V x 2 $400
- Swit Charger $250
- WC battery plate. $400
- Small HD EVF $1500
- cables and misc. $200
- Rig $300
Total $43,950
-----------
It's really interesting because the Arris are much cheaper in Europe than in the USA where there is a massive mark up. I did quite a bit of research because I'm going to be in Germany this summer anyways, and figure out that if you are a Non-EU citizen, you can buy Alexas in Germany with no VAT, the USA import fee is 2.5% and it costs $250 for a customs agent to do the paper work. The Mini Euro price of E32,500 vs $45,000 is about $10,000 less in Europe.
A bit of hassle probably, but if you are going to be in Europe anyways, could be something to consider as $10K is a lot of money. But probably warranty issues.
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The Alexa Mini will be a winner for years to come- probably the safest investment as the form factor is so versatile.
BTW, if you're in LA, did you price out a shoot on S16 for the doc? There is still nothing exactly like film. Good S16 cameras are being given away. In NYC we no longer have film labs...
BTW, if you're in LA, did you price out a shoot on S16 for the doc? There is still nothing exactly like film. Good S16 cameras are being given away. In NYC we no longer have film labs...
Doesn't Alexa market their look partly based on large pixel dimension that is optimized for a 2K image?
Since the Amira and the Mini can shoot 3.2K which uses the full sensor size, does that mean the pixel dimensions will change since it's capturing to 3.2K as opposed to 2K? I wonder if that will change the beloved Arri aesthetic a bit?
Since the Amira and the Mini can shoot 3.2K which uses the full sensor size, does that mean the pixel dimensions will change since it's capturing to 3.2K as opposed to 2K? I wonder if that will change the beloved Arri aesthetic a bit?
eddavid
Carbonite Member
I think someone said the Alexa Mini is 35k as base price - but anyway - it's all pretty similar in prices - and now I am very much looking forward to a future where fan boys go away (which already has been happening this past year) since the red dragon wasn't the Messiah they claimed it would be.
Nate Weaver
Veteran
I've played with Amira UHD a bit, and have viewed the footage in 4K on my 4K set. It looks just like regular Alexa footage, except you can see into details more. Amazingly, it looks just as good or better than F55 4K XAVC, I put them both in the same timeline and A/B'd back and forth. Myself and 2 others were amazed. It doesn't make sense. Judging Arri by the numbers is...misleading. Do not know how, do not know why!
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
big ol pixels are better even if upressed a bit?
Nate Weaver
Veteran
My current theory on it is, at the limits of what a human's eyes can perceive (talking about how 4K perception is influenced by viewing distance and image size)...in that fuzzy place...good upscaling math and clever debayering algorithms can make a big difference. It's probably a fair bet that Arri is upres-ing the image in the debayer stage, not after. I imagine there's some clever ways to pull more luma res.
Whatever the method, it works.
Grug
Veteran
Doesn't the sensor already oversample somewhat for it's 2k image? When that's the case you've inherently got more luma resolution to play with if you don't downsample. It's just coming at the expense of colour information on a per-pixel basis. So that's pretty much what I'd expect to see.
You get more resolution, but a "thinner" negative colour-wise, it's the same with 4k XAVC compared to 1080p SR444 on the F5(5).
If I were in your shoes, I would stop typing, analyze the project/situations in which I would most find myself shooting in(low light, foreign countries, size, image quality, hand held use), compare those results with my budget and make a couple of trips down to your local renter to spend long amounts of time testing the equipment.
There is not many situations in which it would benefit someone to choose an fs7 over the amira outside of cost, or using it as a crash cam. Outside of DSLR's, as long as you know what your doing most of these cinema bodies(fs7, fs700, c300, f3, amira, epic, etc) are relatively similar in setup for reliable run'n gun shooting. Those that are saying the fs7 is "good enough" are the folks you would probably do best to avoid listening too. Class leading equipment is priced accordingly for a reason, and so was the fs7.
There really is no comparison if your workload/income can legitimately cover the budget for a professional cinema camera.
There is not many situations in which it would benefit someone to choose an fs7 over the amira outside of cost, or using it as a crash cam. Outside of DSLR's, as long as you know what your doing most of these cinema bodies(fs7, fs700, c300, f3, amira, epic, etc) are relatively similar in setup for reliable run'n gun shooting. Those that are saying the fs7 is "good enough" are the folks you would probably do best to avoid listening too. Class leading equipment is priced accordingly for a reason, and so was the fs7.
There really is no comparison if your workload/income can legitimately cover the budget for a professional cinema camera.