A question on the filmmaking end of things

Mat Cain

Mat Cain

Member
Ok, I admit it, I am not a filmmaker - I am use to doing studio work and never cared about making video look like anything other than video.

I am about to embark on a feature length movie using a 300 and not much else. The finished product will be on DVD and maybe BR - this won't be going to the theater. We are low budget... Super low. There is no money for a DOF adapter. we got the camera and and the stock lens. We are supposed to start shooting next month.

So here is the question. I don't have any experience shooting 24p but I was considering it to give this movie a slightly more "film" look. However, I am not sure it is even worth it. Would there be any other advantages to shooting 24p rather and 60i or even 30p? I just want to weigh it out before hand to determine if 24p is important or necessary. Is the more film-like look of 24p worth it without a DOF adapter?

Do any other filmmakers in here have any advice or ideas about making a movie with the 300?

Thanks,
Mat
 
Hi

24p and DOF may be in the filmmaking menu, but they are quite different. You shouldn't exclude 24p for not having a dof adapter. 24p has to do with motion and it only works in cinema if you respect some rules. So you must think in first place in what kind of movements will you have in your project and if they are consistent with 24p. Do you already have the 300? If so, you can make a test using the same kind of events you will find in your project...
 
Thanks -

Funny thing is that we have the 300 and I was showing the 70 yr old Director the difference on a Panasonic 17 pro monitor via SDI. I had a guy doing jumping jacks and he couldn't see a difference. I said - you really can't see a difference? he said - no but that is why I have you here. So he doesn't care. I think that 24p will look better and certainly more film-like. Most of the shots we have planned will be locked down or on a dolly - with minimal movements. I have read enough here to know that the strobing effect picks up if you have quick movements.

Isn't there a benefit to adjusting the shutter to minimize the strobing of 24p as well?

So you would recommend shooting in 24p - anything else?

Mat
 
Hi Mat if this is just going to be for DVD or Blu ray I would just shoot it 30p with a shutter of 60 which is 180 degrees.

I shoot indie movie type drama here in the Uk all the time and our std settings are 1920x1080i 25np using AVC Intra 100 and a 180 degree shutter set at 50.

Sometimes I shoot at 720p 25fps but this is if we need to do any under or overcranking or want a more soft look.

I also use scene file 5 if i want a high contrast look but have modified it to include the BBC settings I normally have for filmic TV work as scene file 6.

24p tends to be for international delivery, although here in the UK they just play it back at 25fps so it runs a bit quicker.

I also use the stock lens and find that it is fine for most of the jobs I do, I did a hammer tribute last year and we were all very happy with the look that the 301 gave us, we even did the audio real simple with a boom straight into the camera on tracks 1+2 and two radio mics on 3+4 if we needed to shoot super wide.

You can see some of the of low res rushes here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH8mVouKkhg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbvCcjrAueI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rcf5gXnUaQA

Hope this helps.
 
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I'm planning to make myself an investment, hpx370+mattebox+tripod+etc..which will approximately cost to me 15k. But some issues with 370 make me think about it, if it's specially designed for Tv+news sector rather than corporate video and fiction filmmaking. Highlighted Specs on it seems more developed and desinged for daily news work. Maybe thats why lots of tv channels prefered 300 series.
I'm not a tv cameraman, the reason i'm focusing on this camera is i'm a panasonic guy, menu details and the way it works is smthng i'm very familiar. I'll be mostly doin corporate video, music video, low budget indie feature movies, and as a personal interest landscape cinematography..
A few quick question to clear a little my mind
*For what purpose you guys bought your 300/370's ?
*Do you think this camera is suitable for the productions where the ditigal cinema tools required?
I don't mind 1/3 chip factor as i convinced myself with the picture from 300,and the lens possibilities with the simple converter, rather then DOF adapters.

Maybe a new version of 500 will be announced in a year but i don't have time to wait. Well i don't think 370 will lost too much on its price on the second hand in a year, will it?

All advices highly appreciated
 
I bought and use all my cameras for shooting everything, the only limitation is for very high end drama with prime lenses where I could probably use a RED but only if it was requested I prefer the workflow of P2 so the 3700 varicam would be my personal preference.
 
Shoot 24P if you are making a film. Good for Blu-Ray. Good for SD DVD. Good for web. And as mentioned, you will get longer record times on the P2.
 
lyonfilms said:
Shoot 24P if you are making a film. Good for Blu-Ray. Good for SD DVD. Good for web. And as mentioned, you will get longer record times on the P2.
Click to expand...

That's an interesting thing to say, by its definition making a film has neg or reversal going through a gate and the reason 24 frames was chosen was for international delivery of prints.

If you are shooting a video but with filmic properties that is to be show in the video domain is it not better to shoot it in video frame rates?

I recently got a DVD of a drama I dubbed in the 90's called Finey, it was only available on a DVD from the USA and was originally shot on 25fps film.

For the international delivery it had been dropped to 24 frame (easy in film land you just change the size of the sprocket wheel) but then the DVD NTSC video had been made from that 24 frame print and it looks dreadful with all sorts of flicker and problems. The original that I have on digi beta from the graded Arri super 16 25fps master is superb.

I have always been taught to shoot in the closest format that the final format it is to be delivered on so therefore a DVD or blu ray that is going to be shown as a video (with filmic progressive look properties) will be best shot at video delivery frame rates.
 
Why not shoot 24p for a film? It looks like film and standard equipment is already in place to play it back. 24p DVD and Blu-Ray is what hollywood DVDs are delivered as. If your camera is able to shoot in it, why not?
 
KnoxHotch said:
Why not shoot 24p for a film? It looks like film and standard equipment is already in place to play it back. 24p DVD and Blu-Ray is what hollywood DVDs are delivered as. If your camera is able to shoot in it, why not?
Click to expand...

Don't know a lot about the USA but here in the UK if I shoot at 24p it will just be played back at 25p anyway so why would I want to do it in the first place?

All the USA content that is delivered in 24 frame film format is copied to video at 25fps the slight speed increase is deemed to be acceptable.
 
I agree with Garry Nattrass, as long as your delivery is not cinema's there's no point of shooting 24p,especially on a low budget feaure.For me 24p only gives %5 of filmic look to your footage, the rest is more important for me, and if i need to sell to tv later on any project shooted 24p conversion to 25p is quite pain as far as i know. IMO hpx300 with the good prime lenses should give the film look i'm looking for!!

Is anyone tried 1/3 to 2/3 adapter and some prime lenses? The crop factor is about x2 isn't it? What i'm trying to say is, 50mm Digiprime lens will turns to 100mm on hpx300?

@Garry Nattrass, I searched a little london market but i couldn't find any advanced dealer who could offer me good deal included P2 card, which is advertised on panasonic UK page already, Only deal i found is on DSVIDEO.tv, it looks like 371 didn't arrive UK yet. Can you advice a good ofiical dealer in London ?
 
If you're on a 300 with minimal camera movement (not a lot of handheld or quick panning), I would shoot AVC-I100 at 24 native. You'll have improvements all across your image.

Because of the 1/3 imagers, you will have to work to achieve shallow DOF. Close-ups aren't too tough, but framing shallow is nearly impossible on wider establishing shots. That's why so many people are on DSLRs now.

I've got a 300 in the arsenal and, using some of the good color presets, you can definitely get stellar images from them.
 
Good color presets - you have some recommendations?

I appreciate the feedback. I was leaning toward AVCIntra100 @ 24p - Based on the comments here I'll pursue that.
 
I had a really long reply and then shuttered the wrong tab! The 300 (and 370) are somewhat more limited in their "paintability" compared to their big brothers. However, they do share key features and functionality that you'll find on the VariCam 3700. You just have to make them work to your desired result.

A very good place to start is by reading this short best-practices primer from Panasonic. It addresses their very good Film Gamma (D is my favorite on the 300) and other options for achieving a more film-like response on their newest models.

Another good baseline, from which you can build / test your own preferences, is the BBC specification for the HPX300 (and presumably the upcoming 370). I've tweaked this up and down and found their recommendations are excellent.
 
Is there a Kelvin wheel (scroll) in 300? Or is it still same like old 200 which is under the menu and works like -7/+7?
 
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