A little help with a sound package.

Re: A little help with a sound package.

That Schriber (NRG) 568 shotgun mic has a great price, but poor reputation. From the comments I've heard, it has a lot of hiss in hypercardioid mode. I'd go for either the AT897 or ME64/K6, the AT8415 shock mount, and a Gitzo G557 boom pole. If that's still too much $$, I've heard that the Azden SGM-2X is ok--not great, but ok. You can also easily make a decent boom pole out of a painter's pole and a 3/8" bolt.
 
Re: A little help with a sound package.

Poop!

If you can't spend the money on getting all "high end" items, then I would wait. I would first buy the Mic. a sennheiser ME66 or ME67 would do very nicely. You can get a decent boom pole from B&H for about $160. The mic is going to run you about $375.00. I know there are other mics out there, but these stand above any in the range. I wouldn't advise you going to a setup that in-expensive, you are going to get what you pay for.
 
Re: A little help with a sound package.

[quote author=PurposeDriven link=board=Links;num=1081362096;start=0#2 date=04/07/04 at 12:13:43]

..I would first buy the Mic. a sennheiser ME66 or ME67 would do very nicely. ...
[/quote]

The ME66 and ME67 are good mics, but only appropriate if most of your shooting will be outside. I have the ME66 and it picks up way too much reverb in typical indie-shoot interiors. The less directional ME64 is less expensive and produces cleaner dialogue.

Another thought is to pick up an Oktava MK-012. These are Russian cardioid mics and the QC sucks, but if you get a decent one, they're supposed to be excellent mics. You can pick one up for about $100.
 
Re: A little help with a sound package.

As you know, boom poles are expensive. After I bought my shotgun mic I went shopping for a boom pole and was taken back by the prices. So, being the type who's built his own first-unit equipment, I decided to go searching.

At Target, I found a collapsable pole that you connect a water hose to. It stretches out to 9 feet.

I then went to a music supply store (Sam Ash) and bought a table-top microphone stand for $12 - - I bought this mainly for the screw mount for all shock mounts and such. A little pricey for a screw mount, but they don't sell JUST the screw mount.

I then bought a microphone shock mount for $25.

I went back home, cut the very tip off the pole, fit the screw mount inside, and epoxied the two pieces together. I then screwed my new shock mount to the pole, placed my shotgun mic into the mount, attached my XLR cable to it and BAM! I had a 9+ foot boom pole.

I use this 'home made' boom pole a lot and have told others about it. The whole thing with tax came to $67! It collapses down to a little over 3 feet, the shock mount screws off and it can be totally thrown into the back of your, your...whatever.

Give it a shot! You might like what you built. I've already had three sound guys ask me where I bought my boom pole.

Happy building...


Direktor
 
Re: A little help with a sound package.

Barry, what are you talking about? an ME64? Why would you want to use that for a shotgun? It's not a shutgun. I use the 64s for recording choirs, the mics are not directional, which is what you want out a shotgun. Don't listen to that mic reccomendation. I have quite a few mics in my collection, the 66 and 67 are sensitive yes, but they are great as shotguns. The 64s would pick up way too much in the directions you don't want.

I don't like to call people on things, but when people are going to spend money on good things, they deserve to know the facts. The ME67 is at the top of a short list of great shotguns for under $1,000.

Of course, it all depends on what you are shooting. I have all those mics because they are good. But, if you want a shotgun, I reccomend the best shotgun for the money. An ME64 has different applications.
 
Re: A little help with a sound package.

I'd like to hear back from Barry...what he says in response...

spending that kind of money, I better get something at least...nice...with no hiss...
 
Re: A little help with a sound package.

Hiss, I'm a sound Guy! I work with audio day and night. If Barry gets Hiss out of a $400 + Sennheiser microphone then he's doing something very wrong. I've had nothing but great results from my ME66 and 67.

But I am anxious to hear what barry has to say on the matter.
 
Re: A little help with a sound package.

I never mentioned anything about hiss in the Sennheiser mics, only the 568.  A microphone needs to matched to the type of recording you're going to be doing.  A lot of the typical type of indie-production is shot in fairly small interiors--apartments, houses, offices--in a controlled situation.  By controlled situation, I mean that you're booming the talent and have a cast and crew that can be kept quiet during filming.  Often the biggest problem is something like a bit of HVAC noise you can't control.

The ME64 capsule *is* a directional mic--it has a cardioid pickup pattern.  Take a look at: http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/relaunch/icm_eng.nsf/root/03282#  (click on Technical Data) You can see that the ME64 pickup pattern is very directional--rejecting noise in about a 120 degree arc behind the mic.

Now let's look at the ME66.  http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/relaunch/icm_eng.nsf/root/03284#  The ME66 has a supercardioid/lobar pickup pattern.  Is it more directional than the ME64?  Yes, but there's a catch.  Look at the lobe of sound pick-up directly to the rear of the microphone.  If you're booming outdoors, that lobe is not going be picking up much of anything.  It will likely be pointed at the sky and not causing you any problems.  In uncontrolled (noisy) situations or outside, a shotgun like the ME66 or ME67 will provide superior rejection of off-axis noise.

Now for the catch.  You're shooting your indie-film and you're filming a typical scene in a 14' x 16' room with 9 foot ceilings.  You're booming two actors from above which means that your mic is very close to the ceiling.  You're in a resonant environment and the dialogue will be reflecting off the walls, ceiling, and probably the floor.  Now that lobe on your ME66 is going to cause some problems.  The mic will be picking up the soundwaves directly from the actors' mouths, but that lobe will also be picking up reflected dialogue off the ceiling or wall.  Combine the direct and reflected sounds and you have reverb.

It would be one thing if this was all armchair theory, but it's not.  I own both the ME64 and ME66 capsules and have tested them head to head under different conditions.  In small to medium sized interiors, the ME64 produces cleaner dialogue with less reverb than the ME66.  If you send me a Pany DVM63MQ tape, I'll be more than happy to record a comparison for you (I'll even thow in a comparison of high quality wired and wireless lavs).

It's all a matter of choosing the right mic for your application.  Fortunately, you can start off with a Sennheiser K6 power module and the capsule of your choice and then add other capsules later.  
 
Re: A little help with a sound package.

When I clicked on Olivier's link above, I got an error, page not found within this guy's web site. I clicked around a little and found:

http://www.alanbarker.com/index.html?body=whyk6.html

Which seems to cover the material pertinant (which, I think Olivier was shooting for).

Is it possible that Purpose Driven and Barry S. are talking about different applications? Purpose Driven sounds like a sound man for big productions (e.g., choirs in large settings, etc.), while Barry S. seems to be addressing the indie issue of using real rooms in real homes (not sound studios). The link above seems to support the contention Barry S. is trying to make about the reverb effect in small rooms.

Here's my question. How about the AT 897 and AT 835? Has anyone had experience with these? I'll soon be doing shooting in the exact environment Barry S. describes (indoors, small rooms), and I don't want reverb. The ads for the AT microphones at EVS and B&H suggest good rejection of noise from sides and back (but ads always sound wonderful).
 
Re: A little help with a sound package.

I can't say that I agree with Barry. I don't have experience with those two mics in particular, but I've worked as a recording engineer in pro studios for years. I've never gotten less room-sound from a less directional mic. That is to say, the extra-wide picup patern of the less directional mics always brought in more room reverberance than the little 180º peak on hypercardioid/shotguns. Reverb can come from just to the sides of the talent just as much as it can come from the back wall or ceiling. The cleanest recordings I ever got ('clean' as in most direct, least reflected sound) were with the most directional mics.
 
Re: A little help with a sound package.

Purposedriven,.......... In your opinion, How do the ME-66 and ME-67 differ? I thought I was happy owning just the 66 and 64!
 
Re: A little help with a sound package.

I haven't any experience with the ME64, but I've given up on using my ME66 in small, reflective rooms - the sound is worse than awful. (bought a wired lav for that purpose.) In less reflective rooms, the ME66 is great.
 
Re: A little help with a sound package.

[quote author=hemophilia link=board=Links;num=1081362096;start=0#11 date=04/17/04 at 20:29:47]I can't say that I agree with Barry. I don't have experience with those two mics in particular, but I've worked as a recording engineer in pro studios for years...[/quote]

[quote author=sfogden link=board=Links;num=1081362096;start=0#13 date=04/18/04 at 06:28:28]I haven't any experience with the ME64, but I've given up on using my ME66 in small, reflective rooms - the sound is worse than awful...[/quote]

This is the difference between assuming something is true versus direct experience. All mics have their own distinct characteristics that make them more or less suitable for different applications. I'm sure hemophilia is a good recording engineer that knows *his* equipment, but unless you've compared the actual mics in question under the intended conditions you're making an educated guess in choosing one.

The ME66 is a very good microphone, but it shouldn't automatically be the first choice of an indie filmmaker.
 
Re: A little help with a sound package.

[quote author=Barry_S link=board=Links;num=1081362096;start=0#14 date=04/18/04 at 08:06:58]
This is the difference between assuming something is true versus direct experience.
[/quote]

So true with much of life!
 
Re: A little help with a sound package.

This issue is very important to me. I need to buy a mic this week! (next week at the latest). Most of my shooting will be indoors in a real house (i.e., no studio). The kitchen, dining room, and living room all have hardwood floors. The rest of the house has carpet, but those rooms with hardwood will be used quite a bit (I plan on putting down a ton of small rugs which will not be seen on tape to cut the reverb).

I don't need theory at this point, I need direct experience. Barry S's comments seem compelling, and that link I posted above was saying the same thing, based upon (so the guy claims) about 1,000 hours with the ME64.

I'd also like to hear about people's experience with the Audio Technica AT 897 and/or AT 835?
 
Re: A little help with a sound package.

Barry_S,

I appreciate your in-depth comparison of Sennheiser shotgun capsules.

Although I rarely use a shotgun mic for most commercial and corporate applications, (use wireless lavs mostly), I do own a ME66 plus K6 module for indie stuff and am now interested in adding the ME64 mic capsule to my arsenal based on your words and experience.

Thanks,
TL
 
Re: A little help with a sound package.

To add to the confusion... I do one man band shooting for different types of Reality/Magazine format TV shows, where the majority of the work is verite chasing and following the subject and scene as it unfolds. I have an ME66 attached to the cam as well as a wireless system.

It has been my experience that the ME66 is the perfect mic. for this type of gathering, it has a tight cardiod pattern and reaches a long way. I cant tell you the number of times where I have been behind the main subject and relied on the me66 to gather the non-miced persons dialogue. Comparing this stuff in post, it is full and very useable audio.....and that is what is all about.

ME66 good.

Gordo
 
Re: A little help with a sound package.

This leads all to one conclusion. If I want to have a good audio gear for many situations, I should have at least two different mics. One is the 64, that works great for indie/small room sound recording, and the other is the directional for more noisy environments. So if the 67 is even more directional than the 66 and rejects more off-axis noise than it, shouldn't it be the first choice for that kind of environment? So ending up we would have the 64 for small rooms with lots of reverb and the 67 for noisy exteriors, putting the 66, well kind of useless (I know, its a very good mic, but if you are saying the ideal is having two, aren't you saying the ideal is not having the 66?).

Am I completely off or did I sound logical?
 
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