A few HMC 150 questions

C

custerc

Well-known member
(Long introduction for those who want background and more info, but feel free to skip down to the questions if you like)

OK, so I'm planning to shoot a long-term doc over the next year or two and (assuming we get funding, feel free to donate!) I'm thinking I'm going to upgrade (have been working with a DVX 100, which I love, but I want to go HD, not sure how acceptable SD will be by the time this project is done (could be 2+ years down the road) and I want to be able to show it in theaters and project on large screens and have it look good.

So I've been scouring these boards, pondering my options, and I've come down to this. I'm thinking hopefully we'll have around $5000 of the budget to spend on camera + media.

At first, I was thinking about getting an HPX-170, and that looks like a great camera, but it's a solid $1000 more than the HMC150, and the prices for P2 cards are absolutely insane. This is a doc project that may require us to be out in the field for a while without the ability to transfer to computer, afraid we couldn't afford enough P2 to keep from running out of storage space (and I don't want to be bogged down with the cables and extra bulk of an external storage unit that's connected to the camera).

So, what I'm thinking now is, why not get an HMC 150 and Canon 7d? The HMC150 would be our A camera, with the 7D mostly being used for insurance when shooting really important stuff, and also to get sexy depth-of-field shots, low light shots, time elapse things, etc., for b-roll.

So here are my questions about the HMC 150:

(1) I know that the codec is more of a pain in the post "workflow", but I have no idea what that actually means. I use a Macbook pro and FCP (older version of FCP but I could probably upgrade) for post work. What is the process of getting the footage off the camera and onto the computer like, and what about it makes it less good than, say, the HPX170?

(2) Similarly, I know that P2 cards are "more reliable" than SD cards (they'd effin' better be, for those prices!). How common is it to have SD cards fail? I gather this depends on the card brand and type, so if you have an HMC 150, what cards do you use and how often has this happened to you?

(3) I know the HPX170 has a superior codec and better color sampling (4:2:2 instead of 4:2:0), but they have the same lens and guts, right. So my question is, from the perspective of an average viewer, how much does that actually matter? Say I make a film on the HMC150 in 1080 24p and it's projected on a 20 foot screen, for example, what is going to be "wrong" with the image that wouldn't have been there in HPX footage? I'm not trying to impress the guys who made Star Wars, but I do want footage that would cause a regular person viewing it to say yeah, that looks really good. Is the HMC150 capable of that (vague I know...)?

(4) This may be a question for the 7d forum, but how well is footage from a 7D going to intercut with the HMC? I know DSLRs suffer from some issues that "real" video cameras don't, and I know it's a different codec, but I'm not sure how those differences would manifest themselves in my footage...

If it helps, I'll be shooting a doc, mostly with natural lighting (although interviews will be lit with a basic setup when they're indoors).


I guess my overall question is, I understand the HPX170 is superior to the HMC150 in several ways, but (1) how much does that matter to a regular, non-techie viewer and (2) how much does that matter on the back end (i.e., how much harder is HMC footage to work with).

A lot of questions, I know. I have tried to learn the answers myself from these forums but a lot of times the discussion gets so technical that I end up more confused...
 
Postmaster Frank on another thread just said: "I still can get better pictures from my HVX200 and LEX combination (besides lowlight performance) than any DSLR. The adapter gives you a certain something that a DSLR can´t give. "

And with that in mind, I apologise - I have no answers for you though I do have a few questions.

1) Could you get a camcorder + adapter (even if it was used)?

2) What percentage of really shallow depth of field shots do you actually think you will need in a doc? Some productions go way over the top with shallow DOF.

3) Now that the price of the HMC150 (& the 40) has come down, could you get away with two video cameras instead of just 1 + DSLR? Note the 150 can do fairly good low light shots. That would be a good back up in the field/long term project.

Cheers
 
I have been touring my video, "Voices of the Strait" http://www.vimeo.com/12452315 shot entirely on HMC 150 over the first six months of this year, all over the Olympic Peninsula. I've projected it on 20 foot walls. Other than my inept ability to get perfect lighting on every clip of the video, audiences have come up over and over again and said the video looks very professional and that amateur shooters are amazed how well it holds up on the large screen. The 150 footage holds up very well blown up big. And that's with standard DVDs! On my 48" HD TV the Blu Ray version is almost 3d. Now I'm not bragging this up to say that I'm the greatest video guy but I'm proud of what I did on the 150 over a very short period of time. We shot 30 hours of interviews, with no setup times, so we had to deal with bad backlighting, etc. We did our best. The 150 did very well, but has a bit of hiss when the background noise is 0. The Mixpre helped after I got it.

I've had only one SD card failure, and it was an off brand. Don't scrimp on main stream cards. There isn't that big a price difference! The 7D uses the larger CF cards, not SD. The T2i uses SD. Don't ever take them out while the camera is on. That's a sure way to kill the card.

so I wouldn't let that stop you from getting a 150 over a 170. I would make the same choice again.

I have a 7D also, and use that for instances of when I need extreme DOF. Cheaper than screwing around with a Letus. And it's easier to carry on some occasions. Gives a great B camera. So you get two cameras for a little more than a 170. Such a deal!

Get a field mixer, Mixpre is a good choice, for audio, and some good mics. Audiotronics is fine. Okitava is also good. There are a ton of great mics. Do your homework and find what you can afford. Spend at least a 150 for new ones.

By the way, the newer HMC80 from Panasonic is a very cool looking camera. If I had to do over, I'd be hard pressed to choose the 150 over it for documentary work. An 80 and a 7d would be a good set of gear also. I hear it's low light sensitivity is not as good, but probably is good enough. The DOF arguement is not that big a deal, as the array of features on a 150 over a 7d is worth the price of DOF. DOF is overrated, especially for Documentary work. Just ask Ken Burns...you don't 'need' it.

As to your other questions, many of them have been answered before. Please do a search on the forum for things like FCP and AVCHD etc...
 
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I've got both cameras and both were used in documentary production among other things. It's a workable combination.

For the 7D to shine you need quality lenses. For head shots the 50mm F/1.4 at a minimum (well, I guess the 1.8 could be a minimum). Cheap (and/or kit lens) lenses on a 7D -- and there's no point. The 7D is also an ideal stills camera, and that has it's place in documentary production. The above being said, if money is an issue, you could probably get by with a T2i with a 50mm prime. For head shots -- our 7D is ideal -- the ONLY problem being the twelve minute time limit. For true long form interviews I use the HMC150 with a Letus Ultimate -- and these days my favorite head shot lens is the Nikon 85mm F/2 manual focus AI-S -- that blows away Zeiss anything wide open -- and even handles better.

If it were me with a total budget of five thousand -- I'd probably do an HMC150 with that new Redrock Micro ("M3") adapter and a few classic manual Nikons along with a few extra batteries and a pouch full of quality SDHC cards (oh, and that $200 Audio-Technical lav mic, I forgot the model number, that has trounced all our other lav mics in terms of quality). In theory, that could get me through a production that wouldn't look like junk.

1) Final Cut Pro is a brick wall you're running up against. Apple is now a cell phone company, and Final Cut is being dumped for Premiere Pro by a new studio each day. To get all the benefits of AVCCAM (Panasonic's "professional" implementation of AVCHD) you'll want Premiere Pro CS5. Otherwise you're stuck doing whatever that "log and transfer" thing is -- that is converting your AVCCAM files to ProRes. Search the forum -- but it translates into a bunch of headaches and slow downs. With Premiere Pro CS5 -- the AVCCAM workflow is exactly what people dreamed about all these years leading up to now -- nearly instantaneous and efficient.

2) Coming from a pro photography background -- among the top rules is to buy only the best storage media. Two years ago I bought a series of Sandisk Extreme 3 "30 Mbps" Class 6 SDHC cards. In two years with hundreds of hours of filming and God only knows how many formats -- I have not had one single problem. NOT ONE SINGLE PROBLEM. I've never once seen "Card Check" -- that I only know about because I've read it on this forum. ON THE OTHER HAND -- there's a bunch of characters who saved thirty or forty dollars by buying "Transcend" or "Patriot" or whatever no name brand -- and you can read all about their card failure issues on this forum (do a search).

SO -- DON'T COMPROMISE ON YOUR MEDIA -- and, like me, after two years of brutal use your SDHC cards can prove to be exactly as reliable as our P2 cards. Go with Sandisk or Lexar.

3) Yes, and it'll be fine. It will "feel" fine and professional (if you know how to use the camera) to regular viewers. I've never once had a client or viewer walk out because the original camera footage wasn't 4:2:2 intraframe. It'll blow away the best of anything you've seen done with "HDV," and will hold it's own against most any traditional broadcast format.

4) Standard picture profile on the 7D, sharpness all the way down, contrast all the way down, and this should not be noticeable to someone who doesn't know what they're looking at (regular viewer) when mixed with an HMC150 with either the Cine-V or B.Press gamma (also with both Detail and V.Detail all the way down to -7 and coring reduced to -2).

Your "overall question"
1) none, and the 150 is a better camera for indie doc production
2) if you insist on using the ancient Final Cut -- almost exactly as difficult as the HPX170 (although, they've got some "wrapper" app that may make the 170 a bit easier), but if you use Premiere Pro it's as close to a dream as current tech now gets. Also, Premiere Pro CS5 exports projects to both Final Cut and Avid -- so even if your partners are Final Cut people -- you can still enjoy the CS5 benefits while collaborating with sticks in the mud.

NOTES:

1) There is a learning curve for the 150. It's not meant to be set to "auto" and if you do you'll get mediocre results. If auto is your goal -- visit the HMC40 or perhaps a Canon Vixia something.

2) The AF-100 (soon to be released by Panasonic) is the rage-de-jour on this forum and, in theory, could be the one camera that meets all your needs. Its price is five thousand, and you'll need to add the cost of lenses and other necessary accessories. If you can swing the extra money -- it may be a superior choice. On the other hand, the HMC150 with a good V-DSLR has it's own advantages (CCD sensor for video that is ideal for handheld stuff, high quality stills from your DSLR, on and on).

3) You'll want an external audio recorder (I use the Zoom H4n) for your DSLR interviews, and that combo is powerful. The Zoom has proven itself many times over recording everything from music to ambient to interviews. Frankly, it blows away the audio on the HMC150.

4) All of the above has a learning curve. Don't expect to buy this stuff and be ready to produce in a few weeks.

OKAY -- I barricaded myself in for "black friday" and kept myself busy here on DVXuser. I hope some of that helps. Good luck!
 
@8string: I can't use an HMC 80 (or anything that big). I'll be shooting in China, on a subject sensitive enough that I want to avoid drawing attention whenever possible. That's another reason I think having a 7D could be good; there are situations where it might be dangerous to pull out a big thing like the HMC150 and start shooting, but the 7D just looks like a still camera and wouldn't attract as much attention. Similarly, I want to avoid running sound separately because having that equipment separate also attracts attention.

@paulWM: I can't afford two HMCs...maybe if I bought them used, but I live in China, there's not a good way to buy used "prosumer" gear here. I also don't want to do an adapter, I'm afraid that would be a pain in certain situations and I like the idea of being able to shoot with two cameras anyway, which obviously I couldn't do if I just got one HMC and an adapter.
 
AGMedia said:
I've got both cameras and both were used in documentary production among other things. It's a workable combination.

For the 7D to shine you need quality lenses. For head shots the 50mm F/1.4 at a minimum (well, I guess the 1.8 could be a minimum). Cheap (and/or kit lens) lenses on a 7D -- and there's no point. The 7D is also an ideal stills camera, and that has it's place in documentary production. The above being said, if money is an issue, you could probably get by with a T2i with a 50mm prime. For head shots -- our 7D is ideal -- the ONLY problem being the twelve minute time limit. For true long form interviews I use the HMC150 with a Letus Ultimate -- and these days my favorite head shot lens is the Nikon 85mm F/2 manual focus AI-S -- that blows away Zeiss anything wide open -- and even handles better.

If it were me with a total budget of five thousand -- I'd probably do an HMC150 with that new Redrock Micro ("M3") adapter and a few classic manual Nikons along with a few extra batteries and a pouch full of quality SDHC cards (oh, and that $200 Audio-Technical lav mic, I forgot the model number, that has trounced all our other lav mics in terms of quality). In theory, that could get me through a production that wouldn't look like junk.

1) Final Cut Pro is a brick wall you're running up against. Apple is now a cell phone company, and Final Cut is being dumped for Premiere Pro by a new studio each day. To get all the benefits of AVCCAM (Panasonic's "professional" implementation of AVCHD) you'll want Premiere Pro CS5. Otherwise you're stuck doing whatever that "log and transfer" thing is -- that is converting your AVCCAM files to ProRes. Search the forum -- but it translates into a bunch of headaches and slow downs. With Premiere Pro CS5 -- the AVCCAM workflow is exactly what people dreamed about all these years leading up to now -- nearly instantaneous and efficient.

2) Coming from a pro photography background -- among the top rules is to buy only the best storage media. Two years ago I bought a series of Sandisk Extreme 3 "30 Mbps" Class 6 SDHC cards. In two years with hundreds of hours of filming and God only knows how many formats -- I have not had one single problem. NOT ONE SINGLE PROBLEM. I've never once seen "Card Check" -- that I only know about because I've read it on this forum. ON THE OTHER HAND -- there's a bunch of characters who saved thirty or forty dollars by buying "Transcend" or "Patriot" or whatever no name brand -- and you can read all about their card failure issues on this forum (do a search).

SO -- DON'T COMPROMISE ON YOUR MEDIA -- and, like me, after two years of brutal use your SDHC cards can prove to be exactly as reliable as our P2 cards. Go with Sandisk or Lexar.

3) Yes, and it'll be fine. It will "feel" fine and professional (if you know how to use the camera) to regular viewers. I've never once had a client or viewer walk out because the original camera footage wasn't 4:2:2 intraframe. It'll blow away the best of anything you've seen done with "HDV," and will hold it's own against most any traditional broadcast format.

4) Standard picture profile on the 7D, sharpness all the way down, contrast all the way down, and this should not be noticeable to someone who doesn't know what they're looking at (regular viewer) when mixed with an HMC150 with either the Cine-V or B.Press gamma (also with both Detail and V.Detail all the way down to -7 and coring reduced to -2).

Your "overall question"
1) none, and the 150 is a better camera for indie doc production
2) if you insist on using the ancient Final Cut -- almost exactly as difficult as the HPX170 (although, they've got some "wrapper" app that may make the 170 a bit easier), but if you use Premiere Pro it's as close to a dream as current tech now gets. Also, Premiere Pro CS5 exports projects to both Final Cut and Avid -- so even if your partners are Final Cut people -- you can still enjoy the CS5 benefits while collaborating with sticks in the mud.

NOTES:

1) There is a learning curve for the 150. It's not meant to be set to "auto" and if you do you'll get mediocre results. If auto is your goal -- visit the HMC40 or perhaps a Canon Vixia something.

2) The AF-100 (soon to be released by Panasonic) is the rage-de-jour on this forum and, in theory, could be the one camera that meets all your needs. Its price is five thousand, and you'll need to add the cost of lenses and other necessary accessories. If you can swing the extra money -- it may be a superior choice. On the other hand, the HMC150 with a good V-DSLR has it's own advantages (CCD sensor for video that is ideal for handheld stuff, high quality stills from your DSLR, on and on).

3) You'll want an external audio recorder (I use the Zoom H4n) for your DSLR interviews, and that combo is powerful. The Zoom has proven itself many times over recording everything from music to ambient to interviews. Frankly, it blows away the audio on the HMC150.

4) All of the above has a learning curve. Don't expect to buy this stuff and be ready to produce in a few weeks.

OKAY -- I barricaded myself in for "black friday" and kept myself busy here on DVXuser. I hope some of that helps. Good luck!
Click to expand...


Very helpful, thanks! I'm not at all married to FCP, it's just what I have been using, but I can switch to Premiere CS5 without any huge issues, I think. As for the AF-100, it does look sexy, but I don't think I'll be able to swing the price....IF we meet our funding goal, I suspect we're just going to squeak by, which doesn't leave any money for lenses or batteries and the like.

I think I'm fairly decided at this point and will go this route if we do get funding (fingers crossed that people keep donating!), but I am curious as to why you said the 150 is actually better for doc production than the 170? Not that I'm upset to hear that, of course!
 
custerc said:
I am curious as to why you said the 150 is actually better for doc production than the 170? Not that I'm upset to hear that, of course!
Click to expand...

The foremost issue is recording capacity -- and this is critical in documentary production -- as you often need to sit around and have two and a half hour relaxed conversations (on camera) to get what you need. Two thirty two gigabyte P2 cards gives me about an hour. Two thirty two gigabyte SDHC cards gives me six hours of full raster HD "PH mode" recording capacity. Next is the archive space (disk space) issue. Keeping about fourteen hours of DVCPROHD on my computer for a documentary production is really what broke the back of my HPX170. On the other hand, fourteen hours AVCCAM is less than two hundred gigs. The difference is with a codec that really can't be distinguished by the naked eye from DVCPROHD, and that newer technology (Premiere CS5, for example) has made color correctable and keyable (the new Ultra bundled in CS5 used on HMC150 footage will awe even the most hardened HVX devotee).

Next is the reality of field use. I can fit a dozen or more 16 gig SDHC cards in my pocket, and that dozen would cover 18 hours of recording capacity. Offloading P2 cards every thirty or sixty minutes is just, well, not ideal -- not to mention lugging around the system(s) necessary for offloading.

I could go on -- but for an indie doc producer (as opposed to some guy working for a TV station invested in P2) the HMC150 is a better choice than the 170. And it will continue to have advantages even if the AF-100 is the hottest thing since the invention of the automobile (CCD sensor, etc.)

I'll throw another thing at you -- time lapse. The dirty secret about DSLR time lapse is the flickering that's produced by iris inconsistencies. Also, you get stuck with whatever frame rate you interpreted. On the other hand, with the HMC150, you can tweak your speed in post with NO flickering. If you wanted to go nuts, use one of the lower than PH modes and record for up to sixteen hours or whatever. Premiere CS5 automatically connects your (4 gig limit) clips.

Remember this -- for best results with your 150 keep your sharpness ("Detail" and "V.Detail") all the way down (-7) and lower Coring by at least two. This will, for the most part, kill the noise problem. For sharpness -- do your sharpening in post production. You're not losing resolution by doing this, rather, you're reducing the camera's processing of the image. Minimum detail has the exact same image quality as maximum detail, you're not losing anything -- but you are reducing the camera's heavy handed edge contrast processing.

Good luck!
 
Awesome, thanks. Pretty sure that Im going to go with the HMC150 and a 7d for fun, and it looks like our project is gonna get funded, so I guess I'll have some fun post-christmas shopping to do!
 
Great posts AGMedia. I've been thinking about selling my 150 to help finance the AF100- this gives me pause.
 
I would wait on the AF100. It seems to be a great camera, but you have a ton of flexibility with the 7d. I'm working with both and they work just fine. Often I only shoot my 7D. It can handle a run and gun situation just swell.

I have come to hate FCP. Not only are the apple fan boys on the 'support' boards ruthless to anyone who questions the supposed superiority of their tool of choice, but you can't even cut decent blu ray disks with the tool. I spent hours fine tuning a SD DVD menu system only to find out that after cutting the SD DVDs for my client I couldn't then apply any of my work to producing similar Blu Ray disks. What a joke! And they call that a high end tool! Vegas works fine with these formats we have been discussing, I transcode everything into AVI for better editing and rendering (and it's fast on a quad or better Windows machine, much faster than Apple). I'd love to try Adobe but I fear it's a high end tool for folks who spend their time editing and not shooting. For me, I'll run Vegas to it's logical dead end before moving. I'm just a documentarian, and not a professional editor.

These are all tools, after all, and not religious artifacts. think drill or table saw...the creativity is the brain behind the lens and at the keyboard, not in the camera or the editing suite. If you don't like your choice in six months sell it and get a different one.
 
What about the 60D? Since you're using it for mostly video. It will bring your cost down.
I debated over the 7D vs 60D and went with the 60D because of the flip out screen. I tried to shoot a low angle shot with the 7D in the camera store and it is next to impossible without buying extra accessories like monitor and all that.
 
cbezeike said:
What about the 60D? Since you're using it for mostly video. It will bring your cost down.
I debated over the 7D vs 60D and went with the 60D because of the flip out screen. I tried to shoot a low angle shot with the 7D in the camera store and it is next to impossible without buying extra accessories like monitor and all that.
Click to expand...

What are the differences between the 7d and 60d (aside from the flip out screen)? Can the 60d do 24p?
 
Yes the 60d can do 24p. For video they are pretty much indentical...the 60d actually has audio level control that the 7d does not. Also, I've seen several owners mentioning it is more resistant to overheating. I tried one out for ergonomics...it's pretty nice actually!
 
custerc said:
What are the differences between the 7d and 60d (aside from the flip out screen)? Can the 60d do 24p?
Click to expand...
I agree with PF007.
That's exactly why I went with the 60D. From all indications the video quality is pretty much the same but 7D is a better still cam (remember these are still cams that shoot video so there's more emphasis on the still side of things).
Initially I was going to go with the T2i to save money but it felt very small in my hand so I went back to the store to buy a 7D, saw that the 60D was just released, held it in my hand and I was sold. My research led to me finally purchasing it and putting the extra cash I saved towards lenses.
 
AGMedia said:
... (oh, and that $200 Audio-Technical lav mic, I forgot the model number, that has trounced all our other lav mics in terms of quality)...
Click to expand...

probably the AT899 - we've got two of 'em and they are just lovely with the right voices (and even without). Really, really good post(s) too BTW!
 
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