A bit quiet in here. How many are still rocking the F35?

[NorBro]

I have been out of the game for a long while now. My F35 is in hibernation in its box and I haven't shot anything at all in well over a year on any camera. So I'm out of the loop. Is ARRI having problems or something? Is the Venice now the de facto camera as the Alexa used to be? BMD is still a thing with the starving low end? Is RED still competitive? Or your remark was more from the POV of the future because of what AI will inevitably do to this industry?

I don't know about anyone's financials and plans for the future but:

- ARRI doesn't seem like they are having problems and I would say they are still the #1 choice for most on that kind of level.
- Venice continues to make big movies which will continue to help its growth. Some of them are because of Sony's power in the film business but it doesn't matter.
- Blackmagic became a boring company (for cameras) but it's likely because their Pockets are doing so well (new FF version was recently released).
- RED is still competitive but it's not the same as it was a decade ago.

And that acquisition comment above was a general life statement about tech...usually someone with billions/trillions of dollars purchases things like that for more power. I don't know if ARRI or RED or someone else would ever be up for sale but powerful people owing the companies which make cameras for Hollywood films is something that's at least worth a consideration (it's about the relationships with talent and studios, and contracts and making more money).

AI...it will have an impact on everything.

 

[Doug Bee]

I don't know about anyone's financials and plans for the future but:

- ARRI doesn't seem like they are having problems and I would say they are still the #1 choice for most on that kind of level.

Agree. Steady as she goes.

- Venice continues to make big movies which will continue to help its growth. Some of them are because of Sony's power in the film business but it doesn't matter.

They have the second tier position that RED used to occupy. Venice 2 is a good camera. I wasn't that excited by Venice 1. Burano is interesting too.

- Blackmagic became a boring company (for cameras) but it's likely because their Pockets are doing so well (new FF version was recently released).

Boring? I wasn't sure it was a prerequisite to success. I think they will continue to be used by NON Hollywood filmmakers. They struggle because their after sales service is weak. I mean it's actually GREAT if you're under warranty, I've had many good experiences but if I dropped my camera and it was my own fault, then they aren't really interested in doing repair work. That's what sucks about them. That's OK I guess on a 3 or 4 thousand dollar camera, but they will struggle to make a high end camera unless they can give people an option for service of even self inflicted repairs.

- RED is still competitive but it's not the same as it was a decade ago.

I think they're in trouble actually. Komodo might save them, but their high end cameras aren't really doing much business and I think everyones sick of the 'bro culture with them and there's a bit more awareness around their shady dealings of the past so I think there's a bit more wariness. They've dropped the mantra of "obsolescence is obsolete" because really what they were selling was a subscription program that forced you to spend more and more money. It wasn't like you were protected from obsolescence because to do that you just simply had to keep buying new stuff. What a surprise when users started working out it wasn't that great a deal AND on the back of learning that they'd be ripping people off a bit with the media and other tricks.

I think if it wasn't for their IP and Komodo they'd be dead by now.

AI...it will have an impact on everything.

Already has.

 

[NorBro]

They have the second tier position that RED used to occupy. Venice 2 is a good camera. I wasn't that excited by Venice 1. Burano is interesting too.

Maybe, and I would probably say so, but I think it's also worth considering how many films shot on Venice I/II don't have Sony Pictures behind them or involved.

Boring? I wasn't sure it was a prerequisite to success.

Are you asking something here? Not sure - but, yeah, I think BM's boring now. It's what I think about them but actually also said their Pockets are successful in the same thought above.

I think they will continue to be used by NON Hollywood filmmakers. They struggle because their after sales service is weak. I mean it's actually GREAT if you're under warranty, I've had many good experiences but if I dropped my camera and it was my own fault, then they aren't really interested in doing repair work. That's what sucks about them. That's OK I guess on a 3 or 4 thousand dollar camera, but they will struggle to make a high end camera unless they can give people an option for service of even self inflicted repairs.

Their custom service used to be pretty good in 2012-15, those early years, but I saw they started to change later.

I think they're in trouble actually. Komodo might save them, but their high end cameras aren't really doing much business and I think everyones sick of the 'bro culture with them and there's a bit more awareness around their shady dealings of the past so I think there's a bit more wariness. They've dropped the mantra of "obsolescence is obsolete" because really what they were selling was a subscription program that forced you to spend more and more money. It wasn't like you were protected from obsolescence because to do that you just simply had to keep buying new stuff. What a surprise when users started working out it wasn't that great a deal AND on the back of learning that they'd be ripping people off a bit with the media and other tricks.

I think if it wasn't for their IP and Komodo they'd be dead by now.

I can't speculate based on any negative feelings I may have about them or their practices. I do have a few for some things but they won't influence my opinion about what I think about their financial status or how and for how much they should be selling their cameras.

RED's business model used to always get heat but it was usually from people who didn't know ARRI at the same time had camera licenses (so did Kinefinity) in which you'd pay handful of thousands of dollars for software upgrades if you wanted the better, more complete system (444, 120p, etc).

So you can pay $60K+ for an ARRI or $30K for a RED and $20K more for modules (or more or less depending on the model).

The RED Raven (which they ended up increasing its price like $5K after some time, ha) was my first RED. Overall, it was also a different time with cameras. RED had systems with noticeably better images than many others until BM started making cameras (which is a main reason why BM became so successful).

Already has.

Of course, but more. Implying that entire movies, good-looking movies, will be produced by it.

 

[SJX]

That's not really the way I remember it. The paradigm wasn't Arri vs Sony, it was Arri vs Panavision. While indeed everyone had shot on an Arri at some point, the majority of high end shooting in the states was being done on Panavision cameras. When the Genesis and the D20 both arrived in 2005, more attention was paid to the Genesis by far. For one thing, it could be used self-contained, with the SRW deck mounted top or back just like a film mag, while the D20 needed to be cabled to an outboard recorder making it less "film-like" operationally, and the optical viewfinder path made it less sensitive. But overall, the feeling in the industry was that the Genesis looked better, and it was compatible with the legacy of Panavision lenses. I operated on a number of movies and TV shows shot on the Genesis for the next few years and only very occasionally worked with the D20. It just wasn't considered the player.

So, when the F35 came out in 2008, it was seen as a mildly upgraded Genesis that had PL mount capability and was a pretty fast success. Arri had introduced the D21 but, only the Arri stalwarts really seemed to care. The sense was that Arri was lagging behind in the digital camera game, that they were stubbornly sticking to the concept of film and not really putting their shoulder behind digital hard enough. I don't recall a scenario where the industry was "buying time" with the Sony/Panavision cameras while waiting for Arri to take over--it kind of felt like Arri was going to follow the Kodak route and fall away over time.

But, take over they did, when the Alexa emerged in 2010. Just like that, Arri was back in the game. Onboard file-based recording was what everyone had been waiting for, the massive cooling fins of the D20/21 were gone, the camera was (relatively) sleek and the images looked great. They had finally given up on the optical viewfinder which cut out weight and improved sensitivity (although the studio version was a short-lived offering that retained the viewfinder). This was the game-changer, and the Genesis and the F35 quickly fell out of favor against the Alexa. Instead of introducing a Genesis II, Panavision bought a ton of Alexas and converted the mounts to PV. It was really considered an amazing comeback for Arri! By the time Panavision emerged with the DXL, it didn't make much of a splash against the Alexa legacy, and Panavision is now a shadow of what it was 15 years ago.

Below, as I recently came across these: some pix from my first Genesis show, "Balls of Fury". This was somewhere around the 4th movie filmed on the Genesis. We talked a lot to the AC's and operators from the movies that had just wrapped with it like "Apocalypto" and after I learned that the tape deck could be remoted using dual link SDI cables, I opted to do so for all of the Steadicam work (since I'd have to be tethered with an SDI line anyway for monitoring purposes, I figured what's one more SDI vs 10 lbs of tape deck!? In the wide pic you can see the 2nd AC wearing a camping backpack with the SRW deck and adaptor module in it. Subsequently Panavision built an open frame backpack unit for people to do this more elegantly.



Here with 1st AC (and now president of Local 600) Baird Steptoe



And on the next movie, "Fired Up"

Always enjoy your stories from back in the day Charles. I remember buying a XL1 back in 2000 or whereabouts, based on your review/comments on DVinfo.

 

[SJX]

I don't know about anyone's financials and plans for the future but:

- ARRI doesn't seem like they are having problems and I would say they are still the #1 choice for most on that kind of level.
- Venice continues to make big movies which will continue to help its growth. Some of them are because of Sony's power in the film business but it doesn't matter.
- Blackmagic became a boring company (for cameras) but it's likely because their Pockets are doing so well (new FF version was recently released).
- RED is still competitive but it's not the same as it was a decade ago.

And that acquisition comment above was a general life statement about tech...usually someone with billions/trillions of dollars purchases things like that for more power. I don't know if ARRI or RED or someone else would ever be up for sale but powerful people owing the companies which make cameras for Hollywood films is something that's at least worth a consideration (it's about the relationships with talent and studios, and contracts and making more money).

AI...it will have an impact on everything.

Ah ok. Understood. So nothing really changed, apart from maybe RED conceding the second place a bit to Sony.

We all know AI will kill several jobs in this industry. From talent to crew. It will definitely significantly reduce the need for personnel in both sides of the camera. It will be the first industry to feel the AI change IMO, in any sort of job threatening way. If I was a 3D artist, VFX worker etc, I would start looking for a different carrier now. If I was a bit part actor as well. Then the crew in and around the camera will go, as everything will be done like the Mandarolian, except the backgrounds will be fully AI and no work of VFX artists, the camera and lighting and full acquisition, for the very few live performers will be controlled by AI, with the lighting fully and instantly matched to the plates by the AI controlling a bunch of fixed lights. Hollywood will eat it up and drive the change as they will save a lot of money and make everything faster. Cranking up new films like cookies in a factory to satisfy the disposable watched on a phone contemporary movie audience. A new film every day. I know, I know. I'm beating the dead horse. But...

 

[SJX]

They have the second tier position that RED used to occupy. Venice 2 is a good camera. I wasn't that excited by Venice 1. Burano is interesting too.

What changed so drastically with Venice II?

I think they're in trouble actually. Komodo might save them, but their high end cameras aren't really doing much business and I think everyones sick of the 'bro culture with them and there's a bit more awareness around their shady dealings of the past so I think there's a bit more wariness. They've dropped the mantra of "obsolescence is obsolete" because really what they were selling was a subscription program that forced you to spend more and more money. It wasn't like you were protected from obsolescence because to do that you just simply had to keep buying new stuff. What a surprise when users started working out it wasn't that great a deal AND on the back of learning that they'd be ripping people off a bit with the media and other tricks.

I think if it wasn't for their IP and Komodo they'd be dead by now.

The bro culture and business practices was what always kept me away. The whole made in America bragging and then switching to overseas didn't help either.

 

[Grug]

What changed so drastically with Venice II?

Venice I is great, and won over huge swathes of the industry with it's full-frame and anamorphic capabilities, paired with dual-ISO, perfect internal-ND system, the Rialto flexibility, and a compressed raw workflow that makes actually shooting in raw, an argument that can actually be won (trying to get anyone to approve an uncompressed arriraw workflow on-set is a much harder sell - even at the high-end of the market).

But the need to add a box out the back for raw, and a box out the back of that for power distribution, made an otherwise compact (albeit dense) body somewhat over-sized and unwieldy (no better than a classic Alexa really). You also didn't have a nice Prores option for producers who were simply conditioned to say "no" to shooting raw (and the costs that come with that).

Venice II resolved all of those issues except for integrated power distribution. Which has made it a damned-near perfect camera for conventional production. It's just so easy to use, the integrated form factor is much tidier, the dual ISO and internal NDs make life fast and easy on-set, and the picture quality is just as lovely as the first Venice.

(If only Sony has taken on those lessons on usability from their Venice line when designing the Burano - which has some headscratchingly bizarre ergonomic and operational choices).

 

[ahalpert]

Of course, but more. Implying that entire movies, good-looking movies, will be produced by it.

Unlikely. Seems more likely to me that it will do a lot of what CGI currently does, perhaps in concert with traditional CGI. Probably with an expanded role. But I doubt we'll see a non-animated film AI-generated in whole cloth in the near future.

 

[NorBro]

Unlikely. Seems more likely to me that it will do a lot of what CGI currently does, perhaps in concert with traditional CGI. Probably with an expanded role. But I doubt we'll see a non-animated film AI-generated in whole cloth in the near future.

It's obviously going to happen, just not sure when. If near future is 5 years, probably not - but 10, yeah.

 

[ahalpert]

It's obviously going to happen, just not sure when. If near future is 5 years, probably not - but 10, yeah.

The current wave of LLM-type AI development is losing steam for a variety of reasons regarding both what the hardware can do and what data is available to train it. I'm sure that new inventions and engineering solutions will continue to push the envelope but I don't expect the technology to continue improving at the current pace. Where it settles within the next 2 years may be a plateau until the next big thing in machine learning is discovered.

 

[NorBro]

The current wave of LLM-type AI development is losing steam for a variety of reasons regarding both what the hardware can do and what data is available to train it. I'm sure that new inventions and engineering solutions will continue to push the envelope but I don't expect the technology to continue improving at the current pace. Where it settles within the next 2 years may be a plateau until the next big thing in machine learning is discovered.

I could buy that...10 years is a chunk of time for that.

 

[Archduk3]

That's not really the way I remember it. The paradigm wasn't Arri vs Sony, it was Arri vs Panavision. While indeed everyone had shot on an Arri at some point, the majority of high end shooting in the states was being done on Panavision cameras. When the Genesis and the D20 both arrived in 2005, more attention was paid to the Genesis by far. For one thing, it could be used self-contained, with the SRW deck mounted top or back just like a film mag, while the D20 needed to be cabled to an outboard recorder making it less "film-like" operationally, and the optical viewfinder path made it less sensitive. But overall, the feeling in the industry was that the Genesis looked better, and it was compatible with the legacy of Panavision lenses. I operated on a number of movies and TV shows shot on the Genesis for the next few years and only very occasionally worked with the D20. It just wasn't considered the player.

So, when the F35 came out in 2008, it was seen as a mildly upgraded Genesis that had PL mount capability and was a pretty fast success. Arri had introduced the D21 but, only the Arri stalwarts really seemed to care. The sense was that Arri was lagging behind in the digital camera game, that they were stubbornly sticking to the concept of film and not really putting their shoulder behind digital hard enough. I don't recall a scenario where the industry was "buying time" with the Sony/Panavision cameras while waiting for Arri to take over--it kind of felt like Arri was going to follow the Kodak route and fall away over time.

But, take over they did, when the Alexa emerged in 2010. Just like that, Arri was back in the game. Onboard file-based recording was what everyone had been waiting for, the massive cooling fins of the D20/21 were gone, the camera was (relatively) sleek and the images looked great. They had finally given up on the optical viewfinder which cut out weight and improved sensitivity (although the studio version was a short-lived offering that retained the viewfinder). This was the game-changer, and the Genesis and the F35 quickly fell out of favor against the Alexa. Instead of introducing a Genesis II, Panavision bought a ton of Alexas and converted the mounts to PV. It was really considered an amazing comeback for Arri! By the time Panavision emerged with the DXL, it didn't make much of a splash against the Alexa legacy, and Panavision is now a shadow of what it was 15 years ago.

I can also imagine that CCD being less low light sensitve, and with a price tag 4 times of the Alexa. With recording/playback self contained was MASSIVE.

The fact that smaller rental houses could offer several Alexas in smaller markets probably made it a very different beast.

As an AC, the F35/genesis clearly has more in common with a XL2 / ArriCam, than any digital cameras after the Alexa. And I think that proves the point.

C

 

[Doug Bee]

What changed so drastically with Venice II?

It’s a lot more refined? Finished? Mature? Grug said it best.

The bro culture and business practices was what always kept me away. The whole made in America bragging and then switching to overseas didn't help either.

Even now on their facebook group i see their own customers being attacked by other customers for raising genuine issues. You can not have to both ways.

Their past practice has been deceptive at best. The fact they changed shows they know this.

 

[johancederholm]

Hi!

I'm still using the Sony F35, this is a quick little reel I put together with some of the shots I've captured with the Sony F35 so far

Other equipment used: Zeiss Jena lenses (most of theses shots was probably with the 20mm Flektogon), Odyssey 7Q, Benro tripod.