A big lesson learned

[milksac]

The thing is, several hundred dollars is nothing to a big company in NYC.

Yes, it's all relative. If you're providing camera services for a day for several hundred dollars the loss if the payment doesn't come through isn't significant. However if you create a marketing video for a corporation that consists of multiple shooting days, talent, music, animation, etc. and the budget is over $50K then you better have a signed contract in hand before shooting a single frame of video.

As far as the big corporations go I've never had issues with having them sign a contract. It's how business is done.

Why would I want to bother the kind soul who's hiring me by requiring him/her to sign and fax a meaningless contract when they are hiring 25+ other videographers across the US every day?

Because that super nice trustworthy guy or as you put it "kind soul" might be a con man. I was unfortunate enough to have run across such an individual. Turns out he was travelling the country working his con in every major city until the feds finally caught up with him. By the time they caught him he had pocketed nearly $2 million dollars from various companies. He is now serving time in a federal pen. Truth be told in this instance a contract would have been useless. He skipped town and we never saw him again. Our company failed miserably in deciding to work with this individual. We failed to do a proper background check that may have raised some red flags.

The point is don't stick your neck out very far if you don't know a lot about the person you're doing business with.

 

[Alan H. Chang]

This is indeed miserable. Never be too friendly in any occasion. If it sounds too good, think of an alternative first before going to your Priority. No wonder you said something about a project that was never done or started. Be advised, there are a lot of people out there who are looking for work, but there are.....

1. People work for free, no experience no tools (Very Common)

2. Work for free, some experience no tools (Common)

3. Work for free, experience no tools. (Somewhat rare)

4. Work for free, some experience some tools (Occasionally)

5. Work for free, experience have tools. (Very Rare)

6. Charge, no experience no tools (Sometimes, but easily caught)

7. Charge, no experience have tools (Pointless)

8. Charge, some experience no tools (Somewhat Common)

9. Charge, some experience have tools. (Occasionally)

10. Charge, experience have tools. (Standard)

 

[thisiswells]

Thanks for the replies, fellas! It's nice to think about the virtues of being "nice" and "fair" and "reasonable" and "giving the benefit of the doubt" because I have been very fortunate lately to have VERY good clients. But, it's not always gonna be like that.

I like to think of the "handshake" approach as being very similar to my favorite college bar that doesn't card me, just because I look young (in my early twenties, by the way). They are taking a calculated risk, but that decision has paid off big time for them. I'm more likely to go to that place than any other venue in town, because they give me the least amount of resistance. And, it's a great feeling, the feeling of being trusted and welcomed... I always extend a level of trust to everyone I do business with. And, so far, it has paid off big time for me in repeat business with excellent customers.

[SIZE=-0]As for legal fees, my contract makes the client responsible for them if I have to take him to court.[/SIZE]

Usually when someone defaults on a payment, it's because they don't have the money. Usually if they can't afford to pay you, they also can't afford to pay the legal fees. So, it's all moot. Contracts (especially on smaller jobs) provide a false sense of security. I don't have much faith in them... There are always better customers out there. I'd rather put my energy into attracting better customers, than chasing down small beans from losers that don't pay their bills.

[SIZE=-0]Perhaps freelance is different but if you are running a company (production or otherwise), you are not going to last long ignoring the legal aspects of your business. [/SIZE]

Now there's something we can agree on! I do play things a little fast and loose at times, but you've given good advice. I should probably start paying more attention to the legal aspects of being a freelancer... or else I might get burnt.

Of course, I'm willing to accept the risk of getting burnt and learning a lesson, if it means the client feels they are being trusted and acknowledged as a significant customer. If they get that feeling from me, they are VERY likely to come back in the future. If I approach every customer on an adversarial footing (sign this, or get lost) then they might not ever feel that connection with me and continue looking for another supplier... And, I feel that's a much greater risk than them not paying at all.

The point is don't stick your neck out very far if you don't know a lot about the person you're doing business with.

Another good point to live by. Thanks for that.

 

[NewYorkLion]

hmm, working for free, i guess its a necessary evil, but honestly, it really doesnt get you anywhere, because the contacts you make will be sub-standard. If you want to make it, the best option is to work for someone who already has ins in the biz, either as a PA, office assitant, etc.

There is one guy in the bay area here who is just starting his video business, he went out, bought two HVXs and a FULL grip package, we're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars here. He now hires himself, a PA, and his grip truck at a REDICULOUSLY low price. I can't say i blame him, but in a small market like the bay, that is hurting a lot of people. Luckily, it doesnt affect me, but i know he is underbidding everyone, which kind of sucks. Unfortunately, this brings the value of work in the area way down. And since one of the nice things about the bay is that the day rate is actually pretty high for DV shooters (~$500 plus rental) people doing things like that are going to make that number drop.

 

[lpcvideo1]

hmm, working for free, i guess its a necessary evil, but honestly, it really doesnt get you anywhere, because the contacts you make will be sub-standard.

Very true. But for the person or crew getting ready to start out, these poor contracts net you experience. They are not so much CV stuffers as they're confidence/experience builders. Basically, they are guinea pigs enabling you to know you have the stuff necessary to put up a shingle and start charging.

To that extent, I'd not sweat the abuse--instead, factor it into your startup costs and move on. Once you've got your feet under you, you can start getting real clients.

 

[NewYorkLion]

Very true. But for the person or crew getting ready to start out, these poor contracts net you experience. They are not so much CV stuffers as they're confidence/experience builders. clients.

yeah, but honestly if the person or crew is just getting ready to start out, is the product that they are going to make going to be awesome? no. If you work on your own, you might mess up something 5 times before you get it right, but if you watch someone with the skills to do it right once, you will learn immediatly.

 

[lpcvideo1]

You're right, Lion: watching someone else is the better path.

But if you're going to do it on your own, best to experiment on a no pay.

 

[Kyle Stebbins]

man, what a shitty ceo -- thank you so much for sharing amongst your frustration. youre going to go far, everyone learns from their mistakes... but don't beat yourself down, this wasn't your fault.

thanks again!
-kyle

 

[Huy Vu]

Just an update: She called the friend that originally introduced her to us and tried to get him to convince us to do the video for her on her term. For free of course. Apparently she already announced that the winner would star in a music video and she's having trouble finding someone else to do it. Now not only does she wanted the video done in one day, she wanted it film in one LOCATION: the studio where the song is being recorded. Can you say budget cuts?

What's even more ridiculous is that now there's an implied threat that she would bad-mouth our group in the community if we don't do this for her. I've honestly never met someone who's this shameless.

I'm seriously considering doing this but making her pay us a decent sum. Any ideas?

 

[pixelated]

Excellent thread - thanks to all who have shared.

My few thoughts.

NEVER, EVER work for free. It sends ALL the wrong messages at once.

Best investment to get exposure - do PSA's. People involved in
public service groups at the upper levels are almost always well known and well connected in the community and can network your name faster than anything.

Place a fair market value on the work and make it clear that this is a donation on behalf of your firm to their cause, which of course you fervently support. If you've got what it takes, or show you're willing to do whatever it takes, you'll get known fast. An added benefit - public cause benefactors are often used to writing large checks for projects they like. You'll see many of the same names on a list of art patrons. . .

If you need experience and are willing to work for free, make an ad on spec. See what local firms are advertising (ie they have a budget for promotion) and shoot a commercial. Take it to them, tell 'em it was an assignment to train new help, and offer it to them for an attractive price - NOT FREE. Even if they don't buy it, they now know who you are and how you compared.

Shooting in public? Make sure the crew has your name on everything that'll take a stencil - Jackets, caps, jibs, tripods - you get the idea.

On contracts - A basic agreement saves misunderstandings amongst honorable people and is highly recommended. A contract the size of a phone book won't save you otherwise - just makes lawyers money. Life is WAY too short to spend on or with people like you've described.

My personal approach, small jobs - trust until proven otherwise - no second chances. On large jobs, trust but verify, have a clearly defined scope of work and interim progress payments set to your tolerance for loss.

A personal aside - In a prior existence many years ago I was in the position of providing technical advice for a fee. Initially I charged $35 an hour. It was very frustrating in that people would pay little attention and frequently ignored instructions. This actually generated substantial additional revenue when they'd then hire me to fix their transgressions. While monetarily rewarding it was . . . frustrating.

I then raised my fee to $135 an hour, then $175 then . . . People now hung on every word, took notes and very rarely messed things up. End result - I made more money for a lot less work. The only thing that changed was the fee. People want to categorize things. When confronted with something they don't understand, be it a product, service, company or person, people will initially assign a worth or value based on whatever measures are available to them - like its cost of acquisition. Saying it's free creates an instant psychological crater that's nearly impossible to recover from.

'nother thought - Contracts may be optional - releases aren't!!!! Even if it's free, there better be a piece of paper for every person, place or sound that warrants one.

Best wishes - :beer:

 

[milksac]

What's even more ridiculous is that now there's an implied threat that she would bad-mouth our group in the community if we don't do this for her. I've honestly never met someone who's this shameless.

So she's taking a giant **** on you and you're surprised? It's crystal clear that she doesn't respect you. The reason she doesn't respect you is that you don't respect yourself. You place no value on your services, you're willing to do the work for free. Maybe it's time you and your associates have a serious discussion about your business strategy.

Excellent post pixelated. It's worth repeating: "NEVER, EVER work for free".

For anyone just starting out in this business this should be tatooed to their forehead (backwards), so when they look in the mirror in the morning they will remember and repeat the mantra.

That said there are some instances where this rule may not be applicable. Such as helping a gaffer or DP for a day to learn from their experience. Making your own film. Something you believe in, perhaps a film for a charitable organization.

 

[pheboglobi]

What's even more ridiculous is that now there's an implied threat that she would bad-mouth our group in the community if we don't do this for her. I've honestly never met someone who's this shameless.

I'm seriously considering doing this but making her pay us a decent sum. Any ideas?

I say be done with her, she doesn't really sound like the type of client that you or anyone would want to have. Bad clients only lead to more bad clients anyway. If she wants to go crying and badmouthing people, let her do so - it's far better than getting a reputation as a schmuck for doing free work. Besides, if she is as ridiculous as it sounds, then other people probably know that too and won't take what she says too seriously.

And what would happen if you take the work? If you think you need several days to make the music video look good, you are very likely right - and if you try to do it in one day, it won't be as good... (or it might even turn out badly?) Which won't help you get better work, and it'll make your work not look as good as it could be even though it was not entirely your fault due to budget, time, etc. Other people watching the video won't really care about those factors, they'll just see the end product and base their opinions and judgements of you and your team's capabilities off of that.

So cut your losses and move on to better work. Let the quality of your work be your reputation and not some badmouthing, crazy lady.

good luck.

 

[Huy Vu]

The b*tch threatened to sue us if we didn't do the video for her. Does she have a case?

 

[milksac]

According to your first post you signed a contract. This is bad news, contracts are binding agreements. On the other hand your client has shown herself to be cheap when it comes to spending money. The cost of bringing a lawsuit to trial can easily exceed $25K. The question is - Will she risk losing that money because there's no way she'll recover it even if she wins? Your company isn't firmly established yet so there's no money to take. Personally I think this is an empty threat on her part, she's trying to bully you into doing the work because she can't find another schmuck willing to do the work for free.

That said, you did sign a contract. The best advice I can give is to take the contract to an attorney and ask what you should do. It all depends on your client. Some people will throw money away just to get some vengeance.

If the attorney advises you to complete the work then do the minimum amount of work required to fulfill the contract. One day shoot - one day edit. Move on with your life and count it as a big lesson learned.

 

[Huy Vu]

I told her I look forward to hearing from her attorney and I reminded her that she broke the contract first by mispelling our name on the poster and failing to put us on her website. I think that it's an empty threat also but we'll see.

 

[Adam Crabbe]

It's not a rude thing to ask for a partial fee up front. It's business. get everything in writing. Everyone feels much better when its clear what they've agreed on.

 

[Noiz2]

Well, I wouldn't put it quite that strongly. I believe in working for free at least in the beginning stage to build up a reputation and to hone my own skill. After all when you're just starting out it's a big leap to get people to fork over money for an unknown. But in the future I'll be very selective about who I choose to do free work for and whether the potential gain is worth the work I put into it.

This is a common mistake. Doing free work almost never builds your reputation, and often hurts you getting work. Now there are two exceptions. First pro bono PSA's are a donation and few people get paid much if anything for them and on selected projects that are with people you WANT to work with it can be OK, but make shure to bill them and then discount the fee's. It's very important for them to understand what the value is even if they aren't paying it.

As to your original problem. I know it feels bad but you didn't do the video and not get paid - that would be really bad. In this industry a lot of HOT jobs disolve away for a ton of diferent reasons. You can't get too worked up over the jobs that didn't happen, there will be plenty where you do do the work and get hosed in some way.
Good Luck

 

[Noiz2]

According to your first post you signed a contract. This is bad news, contracts are binding agreements. On the other hand your client has shown herself to be cheap when it comes to spending money. The cost of bringing a lawsuit to trial can easily exceed $25K. The question is - Will she risk losing that money because there's no way she'll recover it even if she wins? Your company isn't firmly established yet so there's no money to take. Personally I think this is an empty threat on her part, she's trying to bully you into doing the work because she can't find another schmuck willing to do the work for free.

That said, you did sign a contract. The best advice I can give is to take the contract to an attorney and ask what you should do. It all depends on your client. Some people will throw money away just to get some vengeance.

If the attorney advises you to complete the work then do the minimum amount of work required to fulfill the contract. One day shoot - one day edit. Move on with your life and count it as a big lesson learned.

I would agree about getting a lawyer to look at it. But a contract is not all that binding till some action has been taken on it. That is one reason that a lot of folks want some money up front, it consummates the contract. Now she did put your name in the poster (even misspelled) so there is a bit on her part, but the failure to live up to the rest would be a problem for her. Also she really has nothing to gain n a suit, she didn't pay you anything and never was. She would have to show damages and that would be very limited since this was a free job. So I would talk to a lawyer because you can get really screwed by the courts if you don't pay attention to a suit even a frivolous one, but her case has no legs and in the end she might be liable to a frivolous law suit charge.

 

[Huy Vu]

I think so as well, since I haven't heard anything from her for the last two weeks so this probably just blew over.