9mm Blanks.....Silent?

The Collector's Armory, in Alexandria, VA carries "blowback" model guns, which are basically super-duper, realistic-looking cap guns. They cycle, eject brass "casings," and produce a little bit of muzzle sparks and flash, and a realistic amount of smoke.

They're metal-and-plastic replicas; you load them with these little brass "rounds," which are hollow, and screw together in two sections, with a plastic/powder cap seated in the back section, and a hole in the front section. They sort of function in the reverse of a real firearm; when the hammer falls, the brass "round" is propelled forward into a fixed firing pin, which enters through the hole in the nose of the "bullet," and detonates the cap, which provides the energy to cycle the action, along with smoke, some sparks, and a very quiet, cap-gun "pop."

I had one of their Uzis; it looked precisely like the real thing, and fired semi- or full-auto, ejecting a stream of "casings" (actually, the brass cap-carrying "bullets") which looked totally money. Plenty of smoke, too.

Best of all, you don't need any permits, or special training, or safety gear. The "non-guns" can't load or feed real ammo (tolerances are just a hair off the real thing) or blanks, so you don't have to worry about that. They're no more than fancy-ass cap guns, really.

Although they are banned in NYC.

It's been a while since I have done business with the Collectors' Armory, but I guess they're still there. I think the manufacturer was Marushin, a Japanese company. Their catalog had dozens and dozens of models; everything from revolvers to self-loaders to assault rifles and machine guns.

Good luck.
 
You're an idiot. That is EXACTLY how Brandon Lee died. It is amazing to me how far amateurs will take a safety issue to save a couple of bucks to do it the tried and true safe way. It's all well and good 'til someone gets hurt or possibly killed. Unbelievable!
 
You must've not read my post very carefully, because I obviously took the necessary precations to make sure everything was safe. I had an actual firearms and safety inspector on set who made the blanks and made sure everything was safe. Then guns were checked repeatedly by 3 to 5 people everytime a blank was fired. And by the way, when you see a revolver being shot on film, more often than not it is an actual real firearm. Oh, and by the way, the revolvers were being shot by real police officers. Think they would have fired the guns if there was even the remote possibility of anyone's safety being in jeopardy?

You say "That is EXACTLY how Brandon Lee died" like I didn't already state that. It was because the safety inspectors and prop men on set weren't careful.

It's ridiculous and reflects negatively upon this community that you are so quick to name-calling. Try growing some humility.
 
Humility doesn't really have anything to do with it. And your statement that "more often than not real firearms are used on the set." is not true now. It was, but not anymore. I have been a stuntman, stunt coordinator and 2nd unit director (DGA) for over 20 years. I have watched people die (two in one year), people get burned (fire burns, as well as powder burns from guns) people turned into paraplegics and quadriplegics. Lost friends in everything from Helicopter crashes to high falls.
My question is this, If you are going to go to all the trouble of doing this type of shot, basically on the cheap by making your own blanks, why not go the extra effort of getting a licensed firearms expert with "full loads" to cycle the "real gun", get the ejections that seem to be so coveted and be done with it?
Police officers are great and many of them are expert weapons guys. I work with L.A.P.D., L.A. County Sheriff's Dept. and multiple other law enforcement agencies. In over twenty years, I couldn't tell you for sure, but having one of them, even off duty, being the expert on set has happened less than five times.
It just seems to me that most people on this subject are interested in getting the product on film or tape and not interested in anything other than trying to do it in the cheapest way possible. Hollywood has been doing this for a long, long time, maybe instead of trying to improve the wheel, you might just put a set on your car and make your film.
 
Humility has everything to do with how you went off on me. Look up humility on dictionary.com. Hopefully you'll understand.

But I do understand where you are coming from.

Making the blanks the way I had it done was really not any trouble. One of the revolvers was owned by the officer and the other was owned by my father. Both my father and the officer did a lot of tests to make sure firing the gun like that was safe. They then made sure everything was set up perfectly, multiple times, to make sure firing the gun was safe. Plus the distance between the figure being shot at and the guns was about 20ft, so there wasn't any risk of powder burns. I honestly do not reccomend using real guns unless you are super careful and everything is checked repeatedly. No one would've done it if it was not safe in any way. I totally agree with you, though. It is dangerous to do, and you should not do it if you do not totally know what you are doing and don't have an expert around to make sure everything is okay. This method should definitely not be used for run and gun shoots (no pun intended).
 
Condescending maybe, being humble has nothing to do with either post. I should be humble because I know right from wrong? (Shaking my head in amazement).

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that your description of what you were doing, opens the door for every tom, dick and 16 year old to go and try this. It's nice that you give all of the warnings, about don't try this at home. And it is nice that you took all the precautions available to you because of the options open to you. All you really need to do is take a look at America's Funniest Videos to understand the mentality of some of our brethren out there.

"For goodness sake Johnnie, what made you think about taking the bullets out of your Uncle's gun, taking them apart and using them to make your movie?" "Oh, I read it on dvxusers.com, a guy from Ashtabula that goes by the name of nemesis explained how to do it." "So we followed the directions and you know he said that we should know a cop. Uncle James, being a cop and all, we thought we were ok." "But Uncle James wasn't home.""Yeah, I know, What do you think I should wear to Dougie's funeral?"
I'm sure your intentions were to describe how you did it and just relate the story, maybe help an aspiring filmmaker to get the effect that everyone is trying to get. I pretty much think it is irresponsible and has the potential for disastrous results.
I most certainly would never try to explain how to do a full burn, turn a car over with a "grab strap", or hit someone in the head with a baseball bat over the internet, or over the telephone for that matter.
These are things that I do for a living, as well as shooting guns, any guns and lots of them. nines, .45's, AK 47's, M-16's, .50 caliber machine guns. Many in close quarters and out in the open, from moving vehicles, cars, motorcycles and helicopters as well as running with scissors and knives. On America's Most Wanted, I had to be executed with a .12 gauge shotgun in the drivers seat of a car. It was night on a desolate road in Florida. Because of the shot, the gun had to be behind my head when it went off. I would never have done that without a real deal weapons guy on board, and frankly I wouldn't have done it with an actor or probably with a stunt man, or coordinator that I didn't know. It was a dynamic shot of the guy coming back to my car, shoving the gun inside and blowing my brains out. The coordinator gave me the option of doing it or not. I knew the stunt guy that was going to do it so I didn't even hesitate.

I apologize if I hurt your feelings. What you described is extremely dangerous and probably would have been better kept to yourself, That is why I went off.
 
I guess what I meant is I thought you shouldn't be so condescending and explain yourself with humility rather than calling me an idiot. You don't have to talk to me that way to get your point across. I took your comments as calling me an idiot and everyone that was involved in making the gun work and observing the safety (about 5 people in all). If it were just me and I didn't have these options available to me, I would have never even attempted it. Even with the precautions me and everyone else on the shoot took, do you really think we are all idiots? Or were you just saying that because of my irresponsibility of describing it on the internet?

I suppose I put too much faith into my fellow filmmaker's common sense. Like you said, I tried to warn whoever reads this that they must take the necessary percautions. But it is true, there are real idiots out there who could take the way I did it and skimp out on all the precations and end up hurting someone. One thing I could see is someone trying to pull a bullet out of its shell casing with a vice grip and some plyers and the pressure igniting the primer.

You are ages more experienced in this aspect of filmmaking (or any other aspect probably, for that matter), so your thoughts and methods obviously hold a lot more validity than mine. It is irresponsible for me to tell people how I did it, because without actually taking the absolute necessary safety steps, someone could get hurt. More often than not, if anyone read my post and decided to take the method I described, they'd probably not do it the way I did and increase the risk. So I appologize.
 
Nemesis, read previous posts. Throughout, it has been explained, not just by me, but several others. Explaining myself with humility works the first couple of times, after that, the gloves are off. When it comes to someone being injured or killed because of someone else's irresponsibility, humility doesn't really work. The word "idiot" got your attention didn't it? As far as my experiences or your's...... my experience and $2 will get me a cup of coffee. I really am willing to help most people with whatever action shot that they are trying to get, but I can't stand by and watch things when they are seemingly out of control.
I have visions of two kids in a basement trying to pull the bullets apart to make a home movie.
 
There are a thousand other ways you could've got my attention other than saying that. I told you I apologize. It was irresponsible to tell other idiots out there (ones like me, according to you) my method. I can just say I personally don't see anything wrong with doing it that way if you do it the right and safe way, but I see what is wrong by telling people about it because of the possible outcomes. I told you I know talking about it wasn't the most responsible thing to do. So why don't you lay off me and accept my apology?

Sorry if I'm taking this personally, but I hate getting on bad terms with someone, even if it's over the internet and I don't even know the person. I'm trying to let you know that I know explaining what I did was not the best thing to do and I apologize to whoever reads this, but I do not feel there is anything wrong with doing it the safe way.
 
nemesis, my last post was one that should not be taken as criticism. I was explaining myself. I apologize if you thought I was still getting on you. You got the point. Thanks for looking up IMDB. It really isn't current. IMDB does it's best to keep up but those credits are about 1/3 of what they really are, but it is that way with everyone.
I'm glad that you figured out how to accomplish what it was you wanted to get done with your blank situation. If you have any questions about action sequences, how to shoot them or block them give me a shout.
 
I have one question...

I have shot numerous shorts and just completed a full length and I still don't know what the term "blocking" means. I know I've done it, because I guess you can't make a film without doing it. Does that mean figuring out how to shoot a sequence in a logical order?
 
Blocking means "to block out the scene" . Where does everybody stand or walk to. Where the camera is placed in relation. If it is a fight, who does what to whom? The "building blocks of the scene" so to speak.
 
---nemesis--- said:
But it is true, there are real idiots out there who could take the way I did it and skimp out on all the precautions and end up hurting someone. .
Click to expand...
maverickprods said:
I have visions of two kids in a basement...
Click to expand...

As it seems the consensus is that we shouldn't have this method of getting "blank firing" on the internet - and I agree - then shouldn't that particular posting be edited /removed on safety grounds?
 
into the light

into the light

I, for one, am gald this post is up. Now I know of several places to get good looking guns for my projects and not have to worry about anyone getting hurt or local law enforcement getting upset.
I also agree with Mavrick. The gloves need to come off sometimes to get a point across. As a paramedic, motorcyclist and extreme outdoorsman I have seen and deal with the end results of an enthusiastic idea without intelligent think through.
A law enforcement officer and I were talking once and he told me there are two types of gun owners in the world. Those who have had an ad (accidental discharge) and those who haven't had one...YET.
I saw the whole documentary on how Brandon Lee got killed. How unbelievably sad and preventable. The loss is even worse when you consider the toll taken on his fellow actors.
I'll end this by asking everyone to be more careful and thoughtful not just with weapon scenes, but in all of your work.
-Will
 
HKFF said:
I was just searching for the perfect option a few weeks ago on gun props. Here's what I have found. (after long hours of weeks of research).......

You should look into what they call airsoft. The gun is virtually a replica, includes magazine, blowback slide. Make sure you look at Gbbs. The only thing is, they do not have the muzzle flash, nor do they eject shells. The magazines are filled with green gas, and you can load bbs into them.

The other option is much more expensive. It's call pfc or model guns. Those eject shells, have muzzle flash, and have a firecracker sound. You'll probably like them alot, but unless you have $$$ the airsoft is a better choice. These are not blank guns, these ARE CAPS.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

Airsoft guns are OK (cheap), but if you can find the PFC (plug fire cap) guns they are often more realistic as far as the fake bullets, the weapon weight, and the recoil/shell ejection. I have a PFC Uzi that I built many years ago from a Marushin kit I bought at The Sharper Image. Aside from a few parts and the firing mechanism, it is so real that a cop would have to closely inspect it to think otherwise. The cap provides just enough gas pressure to move the slide and eject the shell, so there is no bang or muzzle flash. That is an advantage as far as nobody hearing you shoot it. It has switchable semi/full auto and looks real even when you load the re-usable 9mm metal "bullets." I saw a real Uzi disassembled in a magazine and the parts were very similar.

All you have to do is provide the sounds and animate the muzzle flashes in post. Also, make sure you don't lose the "bullets" after they come out. You'll need to clean and re-load them.

You used to be able to buy these replicas from the Collector's Armory.
 
I sent the guys at Collectors' Armory an email asking about the blowback/PFC guns, and was politely told that "you have an excellent memory; we don't sell those any more, and so far as we know, neither does anyone else, now."

Pity; they were a fantastic product. And I guess now mine are collectors' items...
 
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