82mm vs "HVX-specific" fisheye lenses

M

MrJeremyTaylor

Member
Hi, I'm an amateur freelance cinematographer specializing in skateboarding and snowboarding. I've been using the HVX for about two months now, and am finally in a good position to buy a fisheye lens to make my job a little easier and further expand my bag of tricks. The Century Extreme, beautiful as it is, is unfortunately out of my price range. The next obvious and competitive choice would be the EXII Super Fisheye made by 16x9, inc. It's a high-quality product with a reasonable price, but I've encountered a technical problem pre-purchase.

There are two lenses that would work with the camera: one which has 82mm threads, and another advertised as being specifically designed for the HVX200. However, the HVX model of the fisheye has 72mm threads and uses a 72-82 step-up ring to fit it. They're both pretty much the same price, so the difference couldn't possibly be in the price of the glass, and there goes that. A bit odd? I think so.

Therefore, my question is this: because they are priced about the same, and I'm in dire need of a fisheye, which model should I purchase? I've posted the links to both products below.

82mm:
HTML: 
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/624169-REG/16x9_Inc__169_HDSF45X_82_169_HDSF45X_82_EXII_Fisheye_Converter.html

HVX-specific:
HTML: 
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/624170-REG/16x9_Inc__169_HDSF45X_HVX_169_HDSF45X_HVX_EXII_Fisheye_Converter.html

Thanks in Advance,
Jeremy Taylor
 
Well...

Well...

I appreciate the recommendation, but I don't think .55x is quite wide enough. I mean, I would really like to stick with this lens, so the problem is just whether or not i should get the 72mm and use a step-up, or get the 82mm version. Thanks anyway.
 
Fish eye

Fish eye

The 72mm to 82mm converter looks great. It's amazing how they make it and it does not threw the converter out very much farther. The hesitation is always with vignetting, i.e. the corners of the image being rounded off because the actual converter is in the shot when wide. I've got the the discontinued 169-HDCSF4X-72 on the shelf, it is one generation behind the curve, brand new, with the 72 - 82 for $395 + $15 to get it to you.
 
If you are a skateboarder and past skateboard filmer like me, searching for a great fisheye for the HVX can be very depressing. ESPECIALLY if you came from a set up like VX1k/MK1.

When shooting 4:3, its easy to use a semi-sphere shaped fisheye, and get the look you want. It is also fairly easy to make, so the price is always reasonable.

16:9 is a different story. If you use a semi-sphere shaped fisheye lens, you have two choices.

1. Either get the horizontal width/angle of view you want, and let the vertical angle of view get cropped from top and bottom, no longer allowing us to get as close to the subject as before without cutting off his head. (Resulting in having to back up, which causes less distortion, and makes way too much room on each side of the subject)

2. OR, you can get the vertical and horizontal angle of view with a great deal of vignetting. This would look much like a circle in the center of a black rectangle.

Most lens manufacturers, like 16x9 inc. or Cavision, made the first choice. No vignetting, but it's definitely a step back if your used to shooting on a 4:3 camera with a fisheye.

There is one other option, to achieve the vertical and horizontal angle of view, and distortion, of a MK1 lens on an HVX at 16:9 aspect ratio (which you already mentioned). Unfortunately, it costs Century so much to manufacture such a weird, oblong shaped piece of glass to make it possible, that costs more than half the price of the HVX itself.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...0HD_FEWA_DVX_Xtreme_Fisheye_Adapter_Lens.html

$ 2,799.95 + a good rail support system to hold it will cost over $3,000
 
AFAIK both your links are to the exact same product.

The 16x9inc Fish is 72mm by standard, and you have to use a 72-82 step up ring to get it onto an HVX.

If you look at the accessories listed with each item - both of them say they come with an adapter ring, thats the 72-82 step up.

I dont know why they are a slightly different price though, maybe you could email 16x9inc.

http://www.vimeo.com/2005732 - We used one of the 16x9inc adapters on one of our HVX for this shoot - it was only used a few times as it doesn't really work for back country pow.
 
...Now this might be considered sacrilege here, but if your budget can't justify buying a $3,000 fisheye lens, there is the option of buying an equivalent lens from Century Optics for consumer cams at almost 1/10th the cost.

43mm Century HD .3X Ultra Fisheye : 125 degree horizontal angle of view ( the $3000 lens has 128 degree horizontal angle of view )
This lens would fit either a Canon HV40 or a Panasonic HDC-HS300 camera. B&H sells it for $395 ( $300 for the 37mm version compatible with the Canon HG/HF or the Sony HDR-XR520V HD cameras )
http://www.schneideroptics.com/ecommerce/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?CID=1506&IID=6712

Yes, you will have to spend more time in post to make the consumer video match your HVX/HPX shots ( rolling shutter and low-light noise will be issues to watch out for ), but you will get the optical look of the more expensive lens.
 
Wow, I can't believe I didn't catch that before. But yes, you are correct. So, at this point, I know that they are, in essence, the same lens as far as fit and vignette. The price difference is still a little bit of a problem. I think I may have to call 16x9 inc., or write an e-mail expressing my confusion. Your video was great, by the way. Snowboarding with a heli is one of my dreams! Thanks for the help.
 
TheDingo said:
...Now this might be considered sacrilege here, but if your budget can't justify buying a $3,000 fisheye lens, there is the option of buying an equivalent lens from Century Optics for consumer cams at almost 1/10th the cost.

43mm Century HD .3X Ultra Fisheye : 125 degree horizontal angle of view ( the $3000 lens has 128 degree horizontal angle of view )
This lens would fit either a Canon HV40 or a Panasonic HDC-HS300 camera. B&H sells it for $395 ( $300 for the 37mm version compatible with the Canon HG/HF or the Sony HDR-XR520V HD cameras )
http://www.schneideroptics.com/ecommerce/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?CID=1506&IID=6712

Yes, you will have to spend more time in post to make the consumer video match your HVX/HPX shots ( rolling shutter and low-light noise will be issues to watch out for ), but you will get the optical look of the more expensive lens.
Click to expand...

Sir, are you inferring that I should purchase a new camera so I could get a different lens, so I could get standard definition 30p quality, so I could spend more time in post, so I could be less satisfied with the outcome? Well, sir, while I may not agree with what you are saying, I will defend to the death your right to say it.

What I'm trying to say is this: I'm positive that this is the lens I will purchase. Absolutely sure and unchangeable in my ways. My only confusion is at the difference between the two lenses which I posted links to in my original post.

However, if you were instead saying that I should buy a 37mm lens, then get a 37-82 step-up ring (I don't think they make those, actually), well then... actually, the conversation would be about the same.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.
 
mrbrycel said:
If you are a skateboarder and past skateboard filmer like me, searching for a great fisheye for the HVX can be very depressing. ESPECIALLY if you came from a set up like VX1k/MK1.

When shooting 4:3, its easy to use a semi-sphere shaped fisheye, and get the look you want. It is also fairly easy to make, so the price is always reasonable.

16:9 is a different story. If you use a semi-sphere shaped fisheye lens, you have two choices.

1. Either get the horizontal width/angle of view you want, and let the vertical angle of view get cropped from top and bottom, no longer allowing us to get as close to the subject as before without cutting off his head. (Resulting in having to back up, which causes less distortion, and makes way too much room on each side of the subject)

2. OR, you can get the vertical and horizontal angle of view with a great deal of vignetting. This would look much like a circle in the center of a black rectangle.

Most lens manufacturers, like 16x9 inc. or Cavision, made the first choice. No vignetting, but it's definitely a step back if your used to shooting on a 4:3 camera with a fisheye.

There is one other option, to achieve the vertical and horizontal angle of view, and distortion, of a MK1 lens on an HVX at 16:9 aspect ratio (which you already mentioned). Unfortunately, it costs Century so much to manufacture such a weird, oblong shaped piece of glass to make it possible, that costs more than half the price of the HVX itself.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...0HD_FEWA_DVX_Xtreme_Fisheye_Adapter_Lens.html

$ 2,799.95 + a good rail support system to hold it will cost over $3,000
Click to expand...


I definitely have no problem with the first option, and I have no intentions of buying a $3000 piece of expendable glass that will add 10 pounds to my camera and hinder everything I do, haha. Thank you for your input as far as the technical aspect of it all goes. I was aware of all the facts before, but having them reiterated is always a good thing. However, to say again what I've said to every other person who has written on this thread: I am COMPLETELY sold on this 16x9 inc lens. It is within my price range, and it will absolutely fit my needs as far as perception goes. So, thank you for your advice and facts.
 
MrJeremyTaylor said:
Sir, are you inferring that I should purchase a new camera so I could get a different lens, so I could get standard definition 30p quality, so I could spend more time in post, so I could be less satisfied with the outcome?
Click to expand...

I never depend on any one specific camera to get the job done, especially if I have to work within realistic budget constraints. That said, I think you maybe missing the message behind my previous post...

For the folks that want the look of the Century Optics Extreme Fisheye lens ( 128 degrees horizontal angle of view, 180 degrees diagonal ) but can't find an extra $3,000 to spare, then they might consider buying the equivalent lens that Century Optics makes for consumer HD cameras, that starts at $300.

The consumer cameras that I listed shoot HD at 24p ( or 30p if you prefer ) that will match or better the HVX200 in terms of resolution. These cameras don't have the beautiful Panasonic colour, professional manual controls, or CCD imagers. But you can still produce excellent video with them if you work within their limitations.

You wouldn't want to use these consumer cameras for an entire shoot, but for the one-trick-pony of exteme fisheye shots they would easily do the job.
 
MrJeremyTaylor said:
I think I may have to call 16x9 inc., or write an e-mail expressing my confusion.
Click to expand...

I'd be very interested in hearing what 16x9inc have to say.

BH have 7 different 'packages' of the fish

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...at=Type_Fisheye+-+Non+Zoom&basicSubmit=Submit

The first one is obviously for 62mm threads, so we'll ignore that one.

However i want to know what the difference is between the 82mm and the HVX specific, the 72mm and the HPX specific, and the 77m and the EX1 specific..

so yea, when you get a response, post it here.

Cheers
 
Joe Lawry said:
However i want to know what the difference is between the 82mm and the HVX specific, the 72mm and the HPX specific, and the 77m and the EX1 specific.
Click to expand...

The "specific" lenses use a bayonet mount to attach to the camera instead of a filter thread. Given the choice, I would always choose bayonet mount over filter thread. ( filter threads can be stripped or jammed )
 
TheDingo said:
The "specific" lenses use a bayonet mount to attach to the camera instead of a filter thread. Given the choice, I would always choose bayonet mount over filter thread. ( filter threads can be stripped or jammed )
Click to expand...

Not true. The HVX-specific lens is a filter thread lens, as are all of the other fisheye lenses that the company makes, including "specific" kinds.
 
TheDingo said:
I never depend on any one specific camera to get the job done, especially if I have to work within realistic budget constraints. That said, I think you maybe missing the message behind my previous post...

For the folks that want the look of the Century Optics Extreme Fisheye lens ( 128 degrees horizontal angle of view, 180 degrees diagonal ) but can't find an extra $3,000 to spare, then they might consider buying the equivalent lens that Century Optics makes for consumer HD cameras, that starts at $300.

The consumer cameras that I listed shoot HD at 24p ( or 30p if you prefer ) that will match or better the HVX200 in terms of resolution. These cameras don't have the beautiful Panasonic colour, professional manual controls, or CCD imagers. But you can still produce excellent video with them if you work within their limitations.

You wouldn't want to use these consumer cameras for an entire shoot, but for the one-trick-pony of exteme fisheye shots they would easily do the job.
Click to expand...

You're right, I did misunderstand originally, and I'm sorry for that. What you're saying makes sense, but not for my budget. I didn't buy a $4000 camera so I could buy another camera, you know what I mean? So, I'm sorry for how I responded before, but I don't think that would be the best overall decision for me and my working environment. Thanks for taking the time to re-configure your idea so I could understand it. :)
 
TheDingo said:
The "specific" lenses use a bayonet mount to attach to the camera instead of a filter thread. Given the choice, I would always choose bayonet mount over filter thread. ( filter threads can be stripped or jammed )
Click to expand...

yea im pretty sure 16x9inc dont make any bayo fishes..
 
MrJeremyTaylor said:
Not true. The HVX-specific lens is a filter thread lens, as are all of the other fisheye lenses that the company makes, including "specific" kinds.
Click to expand...

Hmmm... So you are saying that 16x9Inc are making "optically specific" fisheye lenses for the HVX200? ( i.e. the optics are configured specifically for the HVX )

Or is it simply special 82mm threaded mounting? ( i.e. the spacing between the adapter lens and the HVX lens is different than other 82mm threaded cameras )

I am curious, as I haven't heard about this before.
 
16x9 inc Lenses

16x9 inc Lenses

Joe Lawry said:
yea im pretty sure 16x9inc dont make any bayo fishes..
Click to expand...

Hello Joe, yes 16x9 Inc is in the process of introducing new bayonet mount fisheye lenses for selective cameras. The HVX200 is one of those we are in the middle of production for and should have available shortly.

To introduce myself my name is James and I represent 16x9 Inc. In following this thread I will help clear up the differences in the lenses . Unfortunately it seems the confusion is caused by the descriptions of B&H of our lenses. Essentially they are the same lens. The difference between the two is in the mounting. The 82 is designed to be used for some cameras that use 82mm filter thread while the HVX is bayonet specific for the HVX200 only. The one key feature we have added in the new generation of the EXII series we are rolling out is that they will feature interchangability between bayonet mount and thread mount. For example, if you purchase an HVX bayonet mount lens and lets say you decide to upgrade/sell your camera. You will be able to either purchase a new thread ring adaptor or possibly a new bayonet mount for your new camera. This allows you to keep your lens and adapt it to your new camera. Hope this helps clarify your questions.

As we do not frequent this board that often, I would suggest emailing us if you have any questions ( james@16x9inc.com ).

You can visit us at WWW.16X9INC.COM

Regards to all!
 
I thought I'd mention that a good option is an M2 with a fisheye lens on the front....I personally don't have a fisheye on my HVX/M2 setup yet, but it's something I'm planning on in the near future.

Of course this isn't a perfect solution for everyone, as the DOF is different....
 
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