$8000 to Spend on a New Primary Filming Set-up. NEED HELP!

J

Jared Chilko

Member
I have a big purchase dilemma and any opinions, insight, or suggestions from you learned folks would really be of help.

So here is a bit of background about myself. I ride bmx professionally and I’ve been filming bmx and skateboarding as a hobby and for compensation from brands for the better part of 10 years. My setups have ranged from TRV’s, VX1000’s, DVX’s, Canon DSLR’s, HVX200’s, and HPX170’s.

I’ve decided to make the move to start planning videography as a profession. I have taken on a few pro bono projects over the past month to build a more diverse portfolio.

Anyway, I have an $8000 US budget to get myself setup with a new primary filming rig with recording media.

I purchased an HPX250 from B&H and returned it as I felt I could make a better purchase. I want something a bit more “future-proof” and hoping this purchase can last me 3-5 years in the industry before I need an upgrade.

My main requirements are below.

-Some sort of servo zoom is key for filming skate/bmx action.
-A wide fisheye option, again for skate and bmx
-A strong codec. AVC Intra 100 looked great on the 250 but with no support for 1080 60p I wasn’t satisfied.
-A good OIS system, again for the run and gun action sports shot.
-Something that I can setup in the studio for controlled shots for products.

4K ready would be nice but not an asset.

I’m contemplating the below camcorders……..

1) Panasonic PX270 – Great codec’s, has a wide fisheye (Century Optics Xtreme .55), great zoom, I’ve heard it has bad OIS even after the most recent update, only 1/3”, No 4k period. (Unless you count 1080 60p as 4K. haha)

2) Sony FS700r – weaker codec, mediocre rocker zoom with the kit lens, great fisheye option with the Canon 8-15 and speedbooster, 4K compatible!, not the best ergonomics.

3) Sony PXW-X200 – Strong codec, has wide fisheye (Century Optics Xtreme .55), great lens, ois should be great as usual, ½”!!! No 4K again.

4) Give me a recommendation.

Thanks. A link to a recent video I filmed solely on my 7D. https://vimeo.com/110072946
 
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I think the answer depends on your filming style/process. Therefore could you elaborate on your approach to filmmaking?

I firmly believe that a filmmaker / craftsman needs to articulate their work in words before they can select gear. By "gear", I mean a standard kit that traverses most of the work you will be doing because from project to project, you will always find a need to acquire gear specific to the needs of that project.
 
Yes, for sure. I use Final Cut Pro and Adobe After Effects primarily for editing. I tend to do lot of hand held panning and zooming shots which is why I want a good OIS on my rig. For product features shallow DOF and tripod shops are used most. I tend to use my 7D for this most of the time.

Anything else you’d like me to elaborate on?
 
BMX and Skateboarding? Seems like I would choose the FS700 simply for the 240 FPS. You can throw a fish eye on it the kit lens is decent-ish for run and gun stuff.
 
I guess the video link was in the first post, but thanks for linking it again.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here but hear me out. If this is what you intend to film and the video represents your style while entering the possibility of future work in other areas,may I suggest the following....

Don't buy any of the cameras you listed in the OP.


But it you intend on continuing to film BMX skateboard stuff like this (as well as bakery promos), I would look at Gh4.

If I were you and based off your video I would buy the following.

Gh4 ($1600, maybe you can get one used for less)
7-14 lumix (get one used for $600?) for your skate videos
Lumix 12-35 for general purpose run and gun lens (used $700, just taking guesses here)
Some sort of mic either shotgun or stereo (Rode or such $200)
If you own a Canon zoom maybe the Metabones EF speedster ($500) for your long throw stuff. With 4k in a 1080 timeline you can get zooms in post with reframing.

and for your skate videos the Nebula 4000 gimbal for pure awesomeness ($700) http://shop.chdntech.com/nebula/nebu...eos-m-a7s.html

Total so far is $4300-4700 (depending on batteries and used price variation).

Upgrades in the future:
Shogun recorder for 10bit 4k Recording
and still $2000+ left over to fill holes in your system.

Why the Gh4? Based off your skate video...
Small, 4K for reframing in a 1080 timeline, over crank up to 96FPS, Large chip but with small chip (get shallow DOF with the right lens or get deep DOF easily), cine profiles with possibility of Log coming, well built (for skate crashes), great video features, also performs as a good stills camera, cheap media, great battery power, better low light than the small chip cams.


This package would help you grow, shoot your skate stuff with a great little gimbal for awesomeness, take care of the ability to shot small production promos and at the same time save you some money.

My 2 cents anyway.
 
Strouty said:
BMX and Skateboarding? Seems like I would choose the FS700 simply for the 240 FPS. You can throw a fish eye on it the kit lens is decent-ish for run and gun stuff.
Click to expand...

For me, watching skate at 240fps gets boring. If the shooter does it here and there it's fine. If the shooter shoots the entire video at 240fps (which they usually do), I watch one trick and scan though the rest of the video, never seeing the video in it's entirety.
 
dustylense said:
I guess the video link was in the first post, but thanks for linking it again.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here but hear me out. If this is what you intend to film and the video represents your style while entering the possibility of future work in other areas,may I suggest the following....

Don't buy any of the cameras you listed in the OP.


But it you intend on continuing to film BMX skateboard stuff like this (as well as bakery promos), I would look at Gh4.

If I were you and based off your video I would buy the following.

Gh4 ($1600, maybe you can get one used for less)
7-14 lumix (get one used for $600?) for your skate videos
Lumix 12-35 for general purpose run and gun lens (used $700, just taking guesses here)
Some sort of mic either shotgun or stereo (Rode or such $200)
If you own a Canon zoom maybe the Metabones EF speedster ($500) for your long throw stuff. With 4k in a 1080 timeline you can get zooms in post with reframing.

and for your skate videos the Nebula 4000 gimbal for pure awesomeness ($700) http://shop.chdntech.com/nebula/nebu...eos-m-a7s.html

Total so far is $4300-4700 (depending on batteries and used price variation).

Upgrades in the future:
Shogun recorder for 10bit 4k Recording
and still $2000+ left over to fill holes in your system.

Why the Gh4? Based off your skate video...
Small, 4K for reframing in a 1080 timeline, over crank up to 96FPS, Large chip but with small chip (get shallow DOF with the right lens or get deep DOF easily), cine profiles with possibility of Log coming, well built (for skate crashes), great video features, also performs as a good stills camera, cheap media, great battery power, better low light than the small chip cams.


This package would help you grow, shoot your skate stuff with a great little gimbal for awesomeness, take care of the ability to shot small production promos and at the same time save you some money.

My 2 cents anyway.
Click to expand...

+1 Excellent advice.
 
dustylense said:
I guess the video link was in the first post, but thanks for linking it again.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here but hear me out. If this is what you intend to film and the video represents your style while entering the possibility of future work in other areas,may I suggest the following....

Don't buy any of the cameras you listed in the OP.


But it you intend on continuing to film BMX skateboard stuff like this (as well as bakery promos), I would look at Gh4.

If I were you and based off your video I would buy the following.

Gh4 ($1600, maybe you can get one used for less)
7-14 lumix (get one used for $600?) for your skate videos
Lumix 12-35 for general purpose run and gun lens (used $700, just taking guesses here)
Some sort of mic either shotgun or stereo (Rode or such $200)
If you own a Canon zoom maybe the Metabones EF speedster ($500) for your long throw stuff. With 4k in a 1080 timeline you can get zooms in post with reframing.

and for your skate videos the Nebula 4000 gimbal for pure awesomeness ($700) http://shop.chdntech.com/nebula/nebu...eos-m-a7s.html

Total so far is $4300-4700 (depending on batteries and used price variation).

Upgrades in the future:
Shogun recorder for 10bit 4k Recording
and still $2000+ left over to fill holes in your system.

Why the Gh4? Based off your skate video...
Small, 4K for reframing in a 1080 timeline, over crank up to 96FPS, Large chip but with small chip (get shallow DOF with the right lens or get deep DOF easily), cine profiles with possibility of Log coming, well built (for skate crashes), great video features, also performs as a good stills camera, cheap media, great battery power, better low light than the small chip cams.


This package would help you grow, shoot your skate stuff with a great little gimbal for awesomeness, take care of the ability to shot small production promos and at the same time save you some money.

My 2 cents anyway.
Click to expand...

dustylense,

Thank you for the detailed and thought out reply! I knew someone was going to mention the GH4! haha. It's an amazing camera no doubt about that. I've used a colleges and the footage is breathtaking. I'm just off put by the fact that there is no zoom rocker. I know you can zoom in post with 4k in a 1080 timeline without quality loss, but can that really be substituted for native zooms? The video I posted was all digital zooms and it lacks the look I get when I'm doing physical handheld zooming shots.

The second thing that rules the GH4 out as a primary camera is the fact that it is a DSLR. Even with ergonomic aids, it never fills the void an ENG style camcorder.

I would definitely consider the GH4 as a replacement for my 7D but for now, I'm thinking bigger for my primary setup.
 
Have you considered the new Sony PXW-X70, its a 1" sensor professional video camera from Sony, this is the sort of camera I will buy if I am starting up.

1" sensor, better than most of the 1/3 inch sensor, and give shallower DoF
Good range of Zoom x 12
Long recording time, longer than 29mins.
XLR for professional mic
Shoot on cheap SD cards
Dual Slot Recording

Here is how it may satisfy your options:

-A wide fisheye option, again for skate and vmx
The PXW-X70 has 62mm front filter thread, so you can attached something like raynox fisheye converter on the front.
http://www.raynox.co.jp/english/video/selection/selection.html#fisheye

-A strong codec. AVC Intra 100 looked great on the 250 but with no support for 1080 60p I wasn’t satisfied.
Its has industry standard 50mb XAVC at 422, with future 4K upgrade.

-A good OIS system, again for the run and gun action sports shot.
It has build in OSS.

-Something that I can setup in the studio for controlled shots for products.
Its very lightweight, so you don't need heavier tripod.

Good review here:
http://www.xdcam-user.com/2014/07/the-sony-pxw-x70-sometimes-good-things-come-in-small-packages/

If I am gonna start a professional video business, I would get another camera on top of X70, ideally a DSLR that uses the same recording media as X70, as it gives you shallow depth of field which is really useful sometimes.
 
Jared Chilko said:
Yes, for sure. I use Final Cut Pro and Adobe After Effects primarily for editing. I tend to do lot of hand held panning and zooming shots which is why I want a good OIS on my rig. For product features shallow DOF and tripod shops are used most. I tend to use my 7D for this most of the time.

Anything else you’d like me to elaborate on?
Click to expand...

Given that you do lots of handheld work then I'd say the Sony A7 II with a native E-Mount zoom lens. You also get smooth autofocus using the E-Mount system but the lack of phase detection points across the whole sensor means the autofocus isn't super responsive.

Also, something to look forward to would be a future camera made by Sony which combines the smooth/accurate/responsive live-view autofocus of the A6000 with the stability of the A7 II and the low-light of the A7S.
 
Hey Jared! Greetings from a fellow bmx-er and filmer :-)

In regards to your set up, there looks like you have a lot of answers from knowledgeable people, but thought I'd throw in my advice. I recently bought an a7s (3 months ago) and I'm loving it, it had a couple of great features that you would come in handy for you, 60fps at 1080, 120fps at 720 (surprisingly good) awesome low light capability making filming lines, or long lens shots at night a breeze and no need to attatch a light. Pro audio sound with the XLR-K2m which attatches through the hotshoe cancelling out the 1/8 microphone jack, much better than a Rode Mic Pro. Sony is releasing their FE PZ 28-135mm F4 G OSS cinema lens shortly, which has servo style zoom and is completely manual controllable too. Easy to fit on a glide cam or an Eazyhandle (there's an SE version out now designed around it and the Gh4) And once the Shogun is out you can record 4k 4:2:2
Hope I have helped haha.

https://vimeo.com/georgeprentoski

Latest vid was shot on the A7s if you want to see some footage, everything else is on a 7D.

 
Jared Chilko said:
dustylense,

Thank you for the detailed and thought out reply! I knew someone was going to mention the GH4! haha. It's an amazing camera no doubt about that. I've used a colleges and the footage is breathtaking. I'm just off put by the fact that there is no zoom rocker. I know you can zoom in post with 4k in a 1080 timeline without quality loss, but can that really be substituted for native zooms? The video I posted was all digital zooms and it lacks the look I get when I'm doing physical handheld zooming shots.

The second thing that rules the GH4 out as a primary camera is the fact that it is a DSLR. Even with ergonomic aids, it never fills the void an ENG style camcorder.

I would definitely consider the GH4 as a replacement for my 7D but for now, I'm thinking bigger for my primary setup.
Click to expand...

I shoot motorcycles. I love the GH4 but it has limitations. In shutter prority exposure changes cause the aperture to change in noticeable steps. The lens stabilization can't handle panning like a dedicated camcorder. I also use the HMC150 & the AC90. Those cameras do everything right but GH4 video looks much better.
 
Jared Chilko said:
Thanks for the input Brian. Reason why you would choose that over the PX270?
Click to expand...
Well when I looked at your video link, much of it was: handheld,extreme wide and shot outdoors and I assume on the web not broadcast. So the advantage of the. Pmw200 in my humble opinion, is its light, has reasonable low light capability, excellent codec choices,ergonomic and self contained with a nice servo zoom lens. It can be set up with a variety of picture profiles and is fully HD Broadcast quality for 1080p work in most countries. It is an all in one camcorder making documentary and on camera host work easy. It has good resale value.
le t me also say that I dont own one, but do own the pmw300. I suggested it because I thought it would be a good camera. I am always wary of the mass hysteria surrounding this one or that one. You should rent a couple of cameras that interest you and one or two that challenge you and then decide what works and looks the best for your work now and for your future work.
Could it be that many people love ,no make that LOVE, their cameras or maybe it's just them justifying their decision? All the best and look forward to hearing what you decide.
 
Despite your resistance to the GH4 I would second that as a STRONG option as well. It is not really a DSLR in the same sense I would consider a 7D to be... I came from the AF100 and the GH4 functions just like a video camera, in a DSLR body... but DSLR first cameras tend to be doing video as a "me too" job VS the GH4 designed for video. The small & light form factor would be really great for sports stuff... I think a small camera body like that would open tons of doors for easy gimbal stabilization, even bike or mounted shots... riding with a larger camera stabilized will be tiring and challenging. It's just a great camera for this sort of work.

You can easily mod it for ENG style shoulder mounting. With all of your left over $$, check out a rig like the DvTec MultiRig Pro. I use that with my GH4 all the time. It's awesome, and you can easily make it function like a super lightweight shoulder camera, or a number of other configs. I'd pickup one of those with the gimbal Dusty Lens mentioned.

The 7-14 is really a quite nice fish eye lens.

You have many zoom lenses to choose from, and they do not need to have a powered rocker... that technique is actually a bit out-dated looking anyway. Snap zooms with the zoom ring and hard cuts are better anyway, powered zooms look news-ish and generally not hip or cool... are you 100% sure you need/want a powered zoom rocker?

96fps is plenty slow enough, really. I agree that when slow motion shots get too long its just too much. 96fps keeps the pace a little faster with plenty of room for oohhh wow cool slo-mo shots.

And the price is right. It's an awesome tool.

Well, all that to say, I think you would be making a mistake to overlook the GH4 because at that price, you can spend a lot on great accessories that will really take it to the next level, and said accesories will be cheap and lightweight - the gimbal, the mounting, etc. THere's just such a great workflow here in everyway.

If you are deadset again the GH4 the Sony FS700 is a good choice, the FS7 an even better choice, but both of these will come close to maxing your budget, and leave you without good stabilization options (which now cost even more with added weight, and are more tiring to use) + without a good powered zoom rocker. Go with a camcorder style camera I guess, but... lose the better slow motion, the better IQ and larger sensor and lens options... etc.. If you had $12,000 the FS7 with a good gimbal + powered zoom might be really nice. But you just get such a tremendous bang for the buck on the GH4 and literally the only thing you miss (see above notes on accessories, etc.) is a powered zoom and my first thought on that was "wait... you really want a POWERED zoom? Like the 90s news shots powered zoom.. for a 2014 extreme sports video...?".

THe biggest lesson I've learned over the years is that the camera is actually much further down the list in my overall toolkit than everything else. These days I'm way more into quick release plates, matching step up rings for various lenses + magnetic adaptors for attaching variable NDs, etc., and lens belts and filter holders and stabilizers and cheap memory cards and all the supporting gear. That's really what makes the bigger difference. The GH4, IMO, is a fantastic fit. Also works great for any extreme sports where transporting is an issue. Want to get into snowboarding shots or backcountry? Rock climbing? Want to appear discreet for places where you are not even suppose to be skateboarding, etc? The GH4 is MONEY for that.
 
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