8 x 8 frame recommendations

Yeah, you can always stack up multiple lower powered lights to create a multi-source source that is then as bright as a bigger light, just always a pain to do so and has various drawbacks. Still, an option.


laverdir said:
Nice van, rather big turquoise shelf with sound blankets ;o).
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Black shelves, turquoise air mattress on top for, uh, putting equipment on so the equipment is comfortable. Sound blankets, yeah, that's definitely what those are for, along with the sound pillows. ;-)
 
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Eric Coughlin said:
And Charles, yeah, since I often work on small shoots the gaffer is just a general term for someone who handles anything lighting related, such as grip, electric, lighting, etc. Obviously bigger crews have more specific titles and roles.
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I get that. I worked for over a decade with crews that size. It is somewhat arbitrary what to call someone who is doing multiple types of jobs on a small crew. But it is important once you stretch out to bigger jobs to know who to go out to...a "professional" (i.e. one who works on larger shows, probably union) grip is going to have more useful information when it comes to flying rags than a gaffer.

Incidentally I showed the pics you just posted to my key grip and he said the setup looked fine, although "tying off to 20lb shotbags doesn't help that much" i.e. if there is a serious gust, that won't be enough to prevent a blowover. I see them tying off to carts loaded with sandbags in those situations.
 
Eric Coughlin said:
Black shelves, turquoise air mattress on top for, uh, putting equipment on so the equipment is comfortable. Sound blankets, yeah, that's definitely what those are for, along with the sound pillows. ;-)
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For storing such a sensitive equipment, NASA developed foam based pressure absorbing material. Try some of Tempur toppers and see if equipment likes it ;o).
 
David W. Jones said:
My stuff generally rides in Pelican/Storm cases, or milk crates.
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Yeah, the genius of pick and pluck is that you can create a topography that perfectly matches your body. My wife and I have his and hers Pelican 0550s in our room. I do have to get into a bit of a fetal position, though.

I'm not a big fan of milk crates, though. Sleeping in one feels like I'm in a crib.
 
Eric Coughlin said:
I went with the Avengers 8 x 8.

https://www.adorama.com/aeh2508.html

Folds down compact, stays together in one piece so you don't have to build it which is sweet, so you just unfold it and it sets up quite quickly, but is still durable. I believe you can also leave the fabric attached when it's folded which saves time as well. The Matthew's one you have to build and then put all the separate pieces in a bag. The only downside to it is that the metal slide lock that locks it to keep it from folding on itself did not slide in properly to lock, as it was too tight. So, my gaffer/PA (a film student who has gaffed for me several times before) took a screwdriver and hammer to this new piece of gear (also at the recommendation of a long time pro gaffer I called on the phone who had used the Avengers 8 x 8 before and had this issue) and hammered away until it was wide enough to fit and lock. This was done before the shoot and my gaffer also tested everything out and set it up prior to the shoot day. Apparently, this is a known issue with the Avengers frame and may need to be done again in the future if the slide lock gets too tight again, which is a pain. Otherwise, really like the Avengers 8 x 8.
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After a couple of months, are you still pleased with the Avenger? I was looking into it but I can't find any detailed reviews on that frame. How did you come to the decision to buy it? Even the product photos on B&H and Adorama don't give you much info.

I just purchased the Glow 8x8 Frame (Adorama's brand) and am going to return it. It is also an aluminum butterfly frame that unfolds. Right out of the bag, the first time I folded it back up, a hinged corner brace that prevents shear force on the frame bent right away. It didn't last a single test. I've been trying to look at the photos you posted in this thread of the Avenger frame, and it looks like the Avenger doesn't have those hinged braces.

8x8 hinge.jpg
 
I'm happy with it. I've only used it, uhm, hmm, once or twice. So, my opinions are pretty much the same as last time I wrote here. It seems pretty durable and it does not have that hinge corner brace.

I like how it folds compactly and remains one piece unlike the Matthews which you have to take apart into multiple pieces to disassemble and assemble, and it's sturdier than the Digital Juice or Westcott.

I have been using the 8 x 8 silk a fair amount, just using a couple light stands to set it up as a large key source to bounce a Gemini off of. Don't need the frame for that and it's quick to setup. I just bought a few 500w and 350w LEDs so I should have enough power to make a good book light if I buy another large silk/diffusion. And the combo stands have been useful multiple times as I hadn't owned combo stands before this.

I also just added two Avengers Junior Booms to my kit. Should arrive soon. I was considering the Matthews which were a bit more expensive (and thus maybe better quality) but I'm not sure the counterweight comes off on that, or if it does, it doesn't look ergonomic for when it is off (like the counterweight side is shortened so using a third party clamp on weight may make it short ended on the counterbalance side; I'm not sure) or easy to take on and off. The Avengers one has a removable clamp on weight you can use. I was wondering if the Avengers and Matthews junior booms had teeth a the joint; guess I'll find out.

I rented the Matthews junior boom once and espiecally with the counterweight attached it was rather a beast to handle. I also think having an orange counter weight is much better than the black Matthews counterweight because those slabs of metal are a real safety hazard. They should offer padded weights since those are often placed at head height. Maybe I can DIY some padding to it, but DIYing is always a pain.
 
Eric Coughlin said:
I'm happy with it. I've only used it, uhm, hmm, once or twice. So, my opinions are pretty much the same as last time I wrote here. It seems pretty durable and it does not have that hinge corner brace.
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How do the hinges at the corners lock in place? With a pin? Fastener?
 
Uhh, neither. I'm not sure. It doesn't have a pin or fasteners. It has a sliding piece which slides at the center to keep the frame from bending back together. It's all one piece. I'd probably have to take it out more and set it up to show how it all behaves, but that'd take more work, so here are a couple photos of it hanging out of the van.




image.jpg


image-1.jpg
 
rob norton said:
The stand you linked is good but I'd go with a triple riser stand if possible. I have four of these and they're solid - https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/187164-REG/Matthews_366165_Hollywood_Combo_Steel_Stand.html

I have four of these as well and they're even better for outdoor frames - https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/3551-REG/Avenger_A3056CS_A3056CS_High_Overhead_Wide.html
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So I had gotten the first set of stands you linked to for my 8' x 8'. Looking at adding a 12 x 12 now and considering my options.

The second stand you linked to has a wider footprint diameter and as you say is more secure. What advantage does that stand have over a Mombo Combo? The Mombo Combo from American Grip for example goes 24' high, has a similar footprint diameter, but a minimum size of 5' 11", while the Avengers Overhead Steel Stand goes 18.3' high, but has a higher minimum height of 6.5'. Basically a triple riser vs quad riser. The Mombo Combo is 51 lbs vs Overhead Steel at 38 lbs. So I guess the lighter weight is the main advantage of the Avengers Overhead? I'm not entirely sold on the built in grip head as it seems that could take up more space when trying to stack stands together, as opposed to having them be removable. I get that you won't typically need a 24' stand for holding frames but it'd be nice to have them as an option for say mounting an Aputure 600D or two (or Nanlux 1200) to simulate moonlight for night scenes.

There's also this stand which looks interesting. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/204456-REG/Avenger_A4050CS_A4050CS_Junior_Boom_Stand.html

The boom arm integrated in it can also act as a t-bone. It goes 8.6'; I suppose if you put an extension on it you could get it up to 12' feet as well.

What do you recommend for casters? Matthew's has some all terrain 8" casters for $699 which are rather pricey and probably more than is needed. American Grip has some good looking casters that look like they have knobs for quickly attaching to the stands. I imagine their casters can be used with most stands, but I suppose the girth of the legs would have to fit into the size of the caster holes and I'm not sure if these stands come in a wide variety of girths. Matthews and Avenger sell some cheaper and smaller casters but looks like they may require tools to attach as I'm not seeing knobs for quickly attaching. Stands with built in wheels don't fold down small enough to fit well in my minivan so removing wheels for transport seems like the way to go, or just not worry about having wheels.


For the 12' x 12' frame, Matthews or Avengers?
 
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Sorry if I'm misinterpreting you, but assuming I'm not, you may read into this any amount of alarmed shrieking you wish: you're proposing to put a twelve foot square diffusion frame on wheels?
 
Yeah. Perhaps you can elaborate on why you seem to think that is a bad idea. Especially for indoor use I see no issue with doing so. Do the wheels really cause much lower stability for outdoor use with wind?

Random image from Google.

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Yeah, sorry, you're being condescending rather than explaining how wheels would make a 12' x 12' more likely to tip over (to the extent they should never be used) than without wheels.

And again, indoors wind is not an issue and I don't only shoot outdoors, so wheels would still be useful even if they aren't recommended for outdoors.
 
I used some cast clamps that I think are made for shopfitting, and replaced the allen screws with something you can do up by hand.

(Oh, and, er - edit, because someone will ask: round tube is generically tougher than square tube of the same weight).

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Recently during a design chat I tried to describe why round is a poor plan for frames.. the prhase is 'underconstrained'

IMG_4622.jpg
 
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In the main that's absolutely right, although I find that clamps having a reasonably stern clamping force are adequate to solve it. The die cast clamps I mentioned have a lot more contact area than most commercial designs, which is why I did it that way

The real problem is that those clamps are castings and I've seen them fracture. Purely as a hypothetical consideration of failure modes, in some ways I'd rather have it snap at that point and undergo a relatively benign collapse rather than topple the stands, not that it's ever happened.
 
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Eric Coughlin said:
What advantage does that stand have over a Mombo Combo?
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I don't have experience with American Grip equipment, unfortunately there's very little of it over here with the main players being matthews and avenger.

Because of the steeper angle of the mombo combo legs, they connect to the main part of the stand much higher than dedicated overhead stands, which would be more annoying (slower) to work with when tilting frames.

Space permitting, a variety of stands that better perform specific tasks are the way to go.

I'm not entirely sold on the built in grip head as it seems that could take up more space when trying to stack stands together, as opposed to having them be removable.
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I'm not sure you have a choice once stands reach a certain footprint. Part of it might be decreasing chances of twisting with the fixed 4.5" grip head (vs. adding/tightening one).

There's also this stand which looks interesting. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/204456-REG/Avenger_A4050CS_A4050CS_Junior_Boom_Stand.html

The boom arm integrated in it can also act as a t-bone. It goes 8.6'; I suppose if you put an extension on it you could get it up to 12' feet as well.
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The world's your oyster! Depending on how you arrange stands in a vehicle, those main boom lock off parts (in the middle with long black handle) are chunky and something to think about. For example, if storing a few combo stands horizontally, along with the boom, the required shelf gap will be larger to accommodate that single stand. This space saving could be negligible depending on your goals but efficiently storing things translates to being able to carry a significant amount more when thinking about what an entire vehicle can hold. In my van the combo stands are stored vertically and there's no extra height beyond lifting them off the rack - a storage enthusiast's dream come true. To continue the made up scenario, if you have the need for two booms and two regular combo stands then you can have two shelves with ideal heights for each type of stand. My point is, I'd be thinking of what you want from your completed vehicle and what it would all look like then come up with a total plan for how everything fits. I've spent an inordinate amount of time thinking about where things go but the payoff is well worth it.

What do you recommend for casters?
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I'm not sure. I don't have any stands with built-in casters but at some point will try some of these out - https://modernstudio.com/products/ez-roller-combo-wheel-set-of-3?_pos=11&_sid=ab8196c1e&_ss=r, which are cheaper than the matthews alternative. I'm sure regular casters are fine but I'm always disappointed with how little it takes for them to come to a grinding halt. Personally the EZ rollers seem like a no brainer, especially considering how expensive the lights are they'll be moving. It may just be a different style of working but I haven't seen too many stands with casters for location work outside of a studio at the small-medium shoot level (again referring to Australia).

For the 12' x 12' frame, Matthews or Avengers?
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Neither, I'd be going round pipe with modern hardware:
- https://modernstudio.com/products/pipe-frame-corner-for-1-1-2?_pos=11&_sid=25aa2c772&_ss=r
- https://modernstudio.com/products/pipe-frame-ear-for-1-1-2?_pos=11&_sid=a2d5945fd&_ss=r

We had some custom 12x frames made with built-in corners, so all you need are the 4x lengths and 2x ears but that's entering the world of custom fabrication.

Also please promise us you won't be setting up any 12x12 frames outside without professional help?

Now that you're expanding into a G&E company and possible studio owner, shouldn't I be invoicing you for a consulting fee. **Inserts smiley face so people know he's joking**
 
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