FS7: 7Q owner with Extention unit to buy or not to buy

Yes over 60fps it uses pixel binning. I was told this by Sony directly.

More light gathering needed for the higher frame rates whilst keeping the ISO the same as native without to much introduction of internal gain to compensate.
 
starcentral said:
Yes over 60fps it uses pixel binning. I was told this by Sony directly.

More light gathering needed for the higher frame rates whilst keeping the ISO the same as native without to much introduction of internal gain to compensate.
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Gotcha. I expect practically this means worse performance for tight patterns, highly repetitive sorts of visual components. For scenes that don't have tight patterns, not so much of an issue I don't think. And while this is a degradation, it's different from the long-gop compression that Mitch is talking about.

Ultimately, the 180fps internal recording is not going to match the raw 180/240 fps 2k raw output, but it is good enough for a great many applications. I shoot industrial machinery frequently, and my clients are loving the 180fps slow mo of machine processes. Doing it in 2k raw would be an undesirable hassle for their workflow, and the internal highspeed is better than anything they've ever received before.
 
I've looked at HFR over 72 fps on a chart and the moire jumps out at you on the very high res areas. But take the chart away and pan around a normal scene & its fine . Just be careful
 
For my F55, I bought the 2K OLPF and it does help quite a bit when you shoot high detailed objects. Go shoot some leaves or organic type materials with lots of DOF and it becomes less an issue.

But it bothered me enough to get the OLPF.

For the FS7 I suggested a while ago contacting the guys at mosaic engineering and seeing if they can manufacture a 2K OLPF for the FS7 that can either swap out for the original or possibly go behind the lens somehow close or on top of the sensor window… but they are the experts in that department not me.
 
Lenilenapi said:
Thanks for being sensitive to the Zebra issue, jot really does make a difference if you like to use them.

With the FS7 I'm not thinking of LUT's so much for creating a look as just solving the "gotchas" , mainly being able to see LUT's in 4K - both for run & gun and to be able to show on a client monitor. That also becomes a big aid in exposure.

By extra level of color adjustment I'm referring to what the Small HD provides which is very cool - particularly for the FS7 where you are limited to only 3 color balances in CINE EI. The small HD has an extra level of adjustment on top of the LUT with 4 color wheel - for Gain , Gamma Lift and overall adjustment. Its a nice feature and well thought out. It will also send out some kind of file with the adjustment info in it as well. With FS7 this could help enormously on any set where the look didn't happen to meet those presets. I don't know how many colorists would bother with or need the extra file but at least the set would look right.

As I understand it your present LUT's for Slog a & 3 are not 3D LUTs yet. Is that correct and what difference does that make to what the pic looks like?
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Our present LUTs are more than 1D-LUTs but not quite full-on 3D-LUTs. I can't go into detail as it gets into corporate secrets kinda stuff, but I can say that they are fairly effective. And we will be moving into full 3D-LUTs very soon. Please note that our present LUTs for the most part are the LUTs provided to us by the camera manufacturers.

We do not currently have plans to put image controls on the Odyssey itself. We do have some basic adjustments for the OLED screen but this information does not travel out to other monitors or get captured to any recording as the image or in metadata. What we instead plan to do is integrate full 3D-LUTs with a library system so that users can choose to paint looks as they please. That painting will happen in a proper color corrector environment in a program such as Resolve, rather than on our 7.7" screen in whatever random viewing situation you happen to find yourself. You will be able to create as many LUTs as you like and store then as a library on an SSD or Odyssey Utility Drive. There will be room on the Odyssey itself to hold numerous LUTs (not sure how many yet), so you can switch around as needed on set. But what is important is that since these LUTs will be created in a program like Resolve beforehand, it will be possible to perfectly match the look you see on set with what you can achieve in post simply by applying that same LUT. Spinning some random controls and hoping the post guy even notices is risky compared with sending files along with a baked-in version or with a LUT file or two that directly imports into any system. This is a more direct way to communicate intent with post and it fits traditional workflows and protocols, which means there's a chance that someone might actually utilize it.
 
Viddovation said:
Mitch, as an owner of the camera I can tell you the above is not correct - the PXW-FS7 will record up to 180fps in XAVC-Intra and up to 120fps in XAVC-Long-GOP. I know this personally as fact from owning the camera. You can see this documented virtually everywhere including this Sony page:
https://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-PXWFS7/

Mind you, I'm not personally sure if Sony pulls any line skipping, binning, or other DSP tricks with the high frame rate options over 60fps, but in terms of the recorded codec I can be authoritative.
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Well, I'm certainly showing my lack of knowledge in this thread! That's for the correction.
 
Thanks Mitch. I understand your approach. i'm also skeptical regarding whether many colorists will bother to look at some color files you created while on set. On the other hand there is something to be said for having color controls available so you can create a look and light to it - presumably the colorist will later understand that's where the footage wants to go anyway. Sony's decision to limit white balance controls in Slog does put the DP in a bit of a bind on set. We're all trying to figure out how to work with that.

So just to be clear the LUT's in the 7Q are active now and will go to the monitor now right? Is there one for Slog3 (maybe Log C will work in a pinch) ?
 
Mitch Gross said:
So we will do the UHD in 10-bit if that's indeed what comes out of the camera.

The high frame rate is in a different form of compression than the standard frame rates. It is in a long-GOP form of XAVC called XAVC-L. This is different from the standard intraframe XAVC-i. Long-GOP takes a reference frame and then approximates a group of pictures (GOP) after it, only recording the differences from that reference frame. The problem with Long-GOP is when it has to deal with huge changes to the image in a short time, such as violent handheld movement, snap zooms or the explosive images one often records at high frame rates. If you plan to shoot surfing with breaking waves at 180p to the internal media, be prepared to see some artifactwing in the complicated fluid dynamics.
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Im familiar with Long-GOP but thank you. Are you saying the 7q+ can record that direct at that frame rate?
 
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Viddovation said:
Mitch, as an owner of the camera I can tell you the above is not correct - the PXW-FS7 will record up to 180fps in XAVC-Intra and up to 120fps in XAVC-Long-GOP. I know this personally as fact from owning the camera. You can see this documented virtually everywhere including this Sony page:
https://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-PXWFS7/

Mind you, I'm not personally sure if Sony pulls any line skipping, binning, or other DSP tricks with the high frame rate options over 60fps, but in terms of the recorded codec I can be authoritative.
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thanks I totally missed that. I have been recording and slow and quick mode to 24P when doing high frame rate (beyond 60p) and that always records at the XAVC-I level not at XAVC-L. That's why I was confused because I wasn't recording the high frame rate directly to the card.

I think it's pretty clear visually that Sony is doing pixel binning or line skipping over 60p because of the aliasing artifacts we see. There were none of those artifacts up to 60p.
 
Curious if the Odyssey 7Q will require the license to record XAVC 4096 x 2160 out of the FS7 or would only be required for RAW. I just received my XDCA back, but haven't had a chance to see what options I have using the R5.
 
NeedCreative said:
Im familiar with Long-GOP but thank you. Are you saying the 7q+ can record that direct at that frame rate?
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The Odyssey7Q+ will (with the FS RAW Record Option on an FS7 utilizing the accessory back) record 2K RAW at up to 240p. It will do this continuously until the SSDs are full. Using two of our new 1TB SSDs, that would mean 40 minutes of continuous recording at 240p. Played back at 24p that would be 400 minutes, or six hours and forty minutes. I hope you have something REALLY interesting to capture at that frame rate / record capacity.
 
Jim Anderson said:
Curious if the Odyssey 7Q will require the license to record XAVC 4096 x 2160 out of the FS7 or would only be required for RAW. I just received my XDCA back, but haven't had a chance to see what options I have using the R5.
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Currently the Odyssey7Q does not record anything in XAVC. From the FS7, it can record in RAW using CinemaDNG stacks, in uncompressed video DPX stacks or in Apple ProRes 422(HQ) in HD, 2K, UHD and 4K.

Without a Record Option, the Odyssey7Q+ can record 4K Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) up to 24p and UHD ProRes up to 30p utilizing the camera's video output over HDMI. Over both HDMI and SDI it can record ProRes in HD up to 60p.

These are the outputs available from the camera.

The only instances when a Record Option is currently required is when it must utilize a camera-specific RAW signal. This is true on the ARRI ALEXA, the Canon C500, the Sony FS7 & FS700, as well as the IO Industries and Indiecam POV cameras. When these cameras output standard video signals in a resolution and format we can recognize then we will capture them without any Record Option necessary.
 
I just looked on your website and see Log-C (designed for Arri) and 709( 800) which is designed for slog3 I believe (maybe also Slog 2?) but is pretty contrasty . Do you know if the Log-C LUT works for Slog-3 . It should be reasonably close as I understand it.

Also - can you record LUT directly or is it only for monitoring?

I see that the multistream recording and live switch recording is a future upgrade, but it looks like multi stream viewing and switching is currently supported for 4 inputs . is that correct? In that case do you just need any other SDI recorder to do a live switch now between 4 sources!

;last question - How long do you expect the current $1795 price to remain?
 
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Lenny,

As I understand it from the press release I received from CD, the 7Q is no longer in production. Some dealers still have stock at $1795. The current shipping product is the 7Q+ at $2295. Among the differences pertinent to the FS7 is the ability to record 4K via HDMI as Mitch has outlined in his post.

You can watch eBay for used 7Q units. Just missed one with the FS Raw enabled which sold for $1735 and the seller correctly noted that he would transfer registration with CD. I personally think that with the FS7, the 7Q+ makes more sense to give an option of 4K ProRes over HDMI. If you only want it for a raw or HD recorder, then the 7Q would be adequate.

Ned Soltz
 
The thing is, currently the 7Q does not function properly with the back extension unit as it outputs a crushed image. Until Convergent fixes this, the use of the 7Q as a recorder with the FS7 is greatly limited. I definitely want the 7Q to output a proper S-Log image. Once it's fixed, hopefully soon, it should be a very useful piece of kit.
 
Lenilenapi said:
I just looked on your website and see Log-C (designed for Arri) and 709( 800) which is designed for slog3 I believe (maybe also Slog 2?) but is pretty contrasty . Do you know if the Log-C LUT works for Slog-3 . It should be reasonably close as I understand it.

Also - can you record LUT directly or is it only for monitoring?

I see that the multistream recording and live switch recording is a future upgrade, but it looks like multi stream viewing and switching is currently supported for 4 inputs . is that correct? In that case do you just need any other SDI recorder to do a live switch now between 4 sources!

;last question - How long do you expect the current $1795 price to remain?
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For the FS7 (I assume this is what you are interested in given the title of this thread), we offer an S-Log3 LUT and will soon offer LUTs for S-Log2 as well as the CINE versions of the color gamut.

Currently the LUTs are for monitoring only (both on the OLED as well as output to other monitors). Coming soon will be the ability to choose to record in ProRes with the LUT "baked in."

While Multi-Stream switching of up to four HD video signals is currently available, the gunlock sync between them is not always perfect. This can cause a momentary glitch in the signal if one chooses to take the switched video output of the Odyssey and record or stream it. In the near future we will adjust the genlocking of these signals for seamless live switching. Recording can be via SDI or HDMI -- may I suggest the Odyssey7?

The Odyssey7Q sells for $1795 but is no longer manufactured. The Odyssey7Q+ lists for US$2295. Some dealers may still have stock of new-in-the-box Odyssey7Q units, which would be sold at $1795. A list of dealers is located on the Convergent Design website. You will need to call around to see who has stock.
 
Personally i would be very wary of trusting HDMi for my main recording - I just don't like. If I bought a 7Q though will it continue to get the same upgrades as the 7Q+ or will it be a bad idea to invest in an already out of date unit?
 
The Odyssey7Q and the Odyssey7Q+ are built on the same platform, only the HDMI input is different. Every firmware update will include them both. The Odyssey7Q is not obsolete.
 
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