FS7: 7Q owner with Extention unit to buy or not to buy

[Erik Wittbusch]

XAVC-I is a highly efficient and strongly compressed codec.
I needs some CPU power to decode and read but makes reasonably sized files, even in 4k.

ProRes is one of the best codecs round for post production. I transformed most of my AVCHD
footage into ProRes for post work when I used FCP. It's robust, reasonably sized as long as
you are in HD world and doesn'T need much CPU power. Every software and even older computer
can handle it. There's barely a quality loss even if you re-compress several times.

The native ProRes files of the FS7 back (HD only!!!) wil be a bit more robust and deliver a tad
more quality than the more compressed XAVC. But files sizes are up to 4 times bigger and there's
barely a "better" quality.

If you ask me: Internal 4k XAVC will win any time over internal ProRes HD.

 

[Ben Scott]

Sorry, slight deviation from the RAW/7Q discussion - but possibly relevant to others who are eyeing up the extension unit.



Can I just check if this is a gut feeling or one based on tests or evidence you're seen/read elsewhere?

The reason I ask is that I will be getting a new FS7 in a couple of weeks and would like to use my Hawk Woods V Lock batts on the back.

I run my own production company - so I'm not shooting directly for a client as such and I can factor in overnight transcodes. My proposed workflow is to do a single transcode from source 1080P XAVC to ProRes HQ and to then run a native ProRes workflow right through post.

Currently we run a C100 straight into a Atomos Ninja, running ProResHQ - so we have a robust intra frame codec from source. But one of the reasons for getting an FS7 is to avoid external recorders.

Can anyone please point me towards a link that discusses pros and cons of a high bitrate 422 XAVC transcoded to ProRes vs a ProRes original natively recorded via the extension unit?

Ben.

Pro Res is tried and tested, but if you have a decent edit system XVACi is the way to go for me. File size is great and image quality is great.

 

[Mitch Gross]

I think the latter half of this statement stretches into opinion, rather than absolute fact. Of course, as a representative of a company providing a solution, you're entitled to such an opinion, but I do think it's opinion.

Again - if you're on an absolute run'n'gun set, than any external recorder is a pain in the butt - althouth the O7Q is likely less of one than the Sony raw recorder. If you're on a set that has assistants and dollies and video village, that external recorder from Sony is nothing. Anybody remember when ACs wore tapedecks like backpacks for moving shots?

And if anyone does want to rent the Sony solution, it's definitely outthere. I already name dropped one rental house earlier in the thread.

Personally I like making post happy.

Fair enough, but I do believe that statistics would bear me out. In sales and rentals, the Odyssey7Q vastly outnumbers the usage of the Sony recorder. Even taking into account just the use for the FS7 or FS700 this is certainly the case.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Except high frame rates of course...

Incidentally, what frame rates will the 7Q record when harnessed to the Sony extension back?

It does do more at high frame rates, but does so in RAW.

4K to 60p, 2K to 240p.

While the FS7 can internally capture UHD to 60p, I do not believe it will record in true 4K (please correct me if I am wrong). Drop down to HD and it will record up to 180p, but the compression is far heavier for that format.

 

[Mitch Gross]

What FPS can the O7Q+ capture from the FS7 with extension currently?

I've cancelled my Shogun order based on a couple of dealbreaking issues for me, and those remaining funds are either going towards a Ronin or an O7Q+

In RAW:
4K to 60p
2K to 240p

In Apple ProRes 422(HQ)
4K to 30p
UHD to 30p
2K to 60p
HD to 60P

And we are working to both increase the ProRes frame rates as well as expand the ProRes flavors. And yes, we continue to work on DNx codecs as well. As we release them, all will be made available to those with the FS RAW option at no additional charge.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Without the extension unit it will capture the same as your monitor/VF output. Anything higher would require a data connection. Unless I'm missing something...

Mitch did say on Twitter it maxes out at 30fps in UHD. He also said that should improve in the near future. He also said it currently records 4K, which can't be true as the camera won't do that until the next firmware update.

Sorry, I as we have worked with both pre-production FS7 & extension backs as well as regular production units, I have lost track of what functions are and are not yet enabled.

It may or may not yet be enabled out of the FS7, but here are the formats we can capture from the HDMI port from the camera onto the Odyssey7Q+, with no extension back involved:

4K Apple ProRes 422(HQ) in 10-bit up to 24p (that's the spec, not our limitation)
UHD Apple ProRes 422(HQ) in 8-bit (10-bit wrapper) up to 30p
HD Apple ProRes 422(HQ) in 10-bit up to 60p

Can't recall if the FS7 will output 2K but if it does we can record that in ProRes 422(HQ) 10-bit up to 60p as well.


Note that as these are straight video signals rather than RAW data outputs, there is NO Record Option required and the Odyssey7Q+ can capture these signals straight out of the box.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Thanks guys. A lot of what you mentioned is why I cancelled my order. I have an A7s as well and so the Shogun was originally for that, but the 7Q+ can cover both those bases. Cheers

Now Mitch, get the LUT implementation sorted and you have yourself a customer

Working on it!:thumbsup:

 

[Bubble]

is anyone know which vendor has the Q7+ in stock and ready to ship out?

 

[Bubble]

never mind the question. BH has them in stock now.

Mitch, thanks for the info.

 

[Lenilenapi]

Hey Mitch - I have a couple of questions for you. I just tried out a Small HD Pro7 because I was looking for LUT implementation but sent it back for a bunch of reasons. When you guys get the 3D LUT thing worked out I may be right in line.
Returned small HD because:
1- they didn't have the LUT playing out to through the SDI out yet which is what i wanted
2- Didn't like menu layout - Frankly yours is perfect.
3- Prefer that your false color is user adjustable ( kind of useless otherwise)
4 - Zebras:
Their zebras had a white background behind them wherever they were active so you couldn't see what was going on in the picture. If you had zebras at flesh tone you might not see much at all.
From the video I saw on the web it looks like maybe you do that also. Is that true?

I like to keep zebras on when I shoot and am used to Sony viewfinders which allow you to still see the image behind the zebras. They have 2 zebras pointing in opposite directions and the one I put at flesh tone has the lines spaced wider so I really can see behind it pretty easily. Very unobtrusive and very helpful for exposure - especially in LOG . The small HD method made them pretty much unusable and I'm afraid that might be true for yours also.

REQUEST - Any chance you guys can change that or make it an option so that there needn't be a field of white or color behind the zebras?
Also I would love 2 zebras - most cameras do that nowadays.

Questions:
- Will your 3D LUT implementation include outputting the LUT through SDI OUT?
- Any chance you will provide an additional level of color adjustment like the Small HD has?. That's a very big deal for the FS7 which will only have 3 preset color balances in Slog making it difficult to see true picture on the set.

 

[Liam Hall]

It does do more at high frame rates, but does so in RAW.

For which you need the Sony Extension unit, the RAW license and a whole load of extra media. Vital points lost on many people.

While the FS7 can internally capture UHD to 60p, I do not believe it will record in true 4K (please correct me if I am wrong).

4096 x 2160 resolution is a feature highlighted for firmware update in early 2015.

Drop down to HD and it will record up to 180p, but the compression is far heavier for that format.

The 180p looks great for price point.

 

[Liam Hall]

It may or may not yet be enabled out of the FS7, but here are the formats we can capture from the HDMI port from the camera onto the Odyssey7Q+, with no extension back involved:

4K Apple ProRes 422(HQ) in 10-bit up to 24p (that's the spec, not our limitation)
UHD Apple ProRes 422(HQ) in 8-bit (10-bit wrapper) up to 30p
HD Apple ProRes 422(HQ) in 10-bit up to 60p

So, just to be clear; when you state, "up to 60p" what you actually mean is 23.98p, 25p, 29.97p, 50p and 59.94p are the only speeds available without the extension unit and not 1fps to 60fps? Again, I feel for many people, this needs spelling out, not least myself.

 

[Ben Scott]

In RAW:
4K to 60p
2K to 240p

In Apple ProRes 422(HQ)
4K to 30p
UHD to 30p
2K to 60p
HD to 60P

And we are working to both increase the ProRes frame rates as well as expand the ProRes flavors. And yes, we continue to work on DNx codecs as well. As we release them, all will be made available to those with the FS RAW option at no additional charge.

Thanks for getting back to me. All sounds great.

 

[NeedCreative]

Sorry, I as we have worked with both pre-production FS7 & extension backs as well as regular production units, I have lost track of what functions are and are not yet enabled.

It may or may not yet be enabled out of the FS7, but here are the formats we can capture from the HDMI port from the camera onto the Odyssey7Q+, with no extension back involved:

4K Apple ProRes 422(HQ) in 10-bit up to 24p (that's the spec, not our limitation)
UHD Apple ProRes 422(HQ) in 8-bit (10-bit wrapper) up to 30p
HD Apple ProRes 422(HQ) in 10-bit up to 60p

Can't recall if the FS7 will output 2K but if it does we can record that in ProRes 422(HQ) 10-bit up to 60p as well.


Note that as these are straight video signals rather than RAW data outputs, there is NO Record Option required and the Odyssey7Q+ can capture these signals straight out of the box.

Mitch the camera outputs UHD at 422 true 10 bit via HDMI now. This is per the manual. 4k DCI is the same. Internal XAVC recording for DCI 4k is coming next month, per Sony. It does UHD now at 422 10 bit.

HFR HD at 180 fps I believe is at 600mbit internally. It's just as compressed (or not) as 4k/60 is, in cam. I need to verify that though.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Hey Mitch - I have a couple of questions for you. I just tried out a Small HD Pro7 because I was looking for LUT implementation but sent it back for a bunch of reasons. When you guys get the 3D LUT thing worked out I may be right in line.
Returned small HD because:
1- they didn't have the LUT playing out to through the SDI out yet which is what i wanted
2- Didn't like menu layout - Frankly yours is perfect.
3- Prefer that your false color is user adjustable ( kind of useless otherwise)
4 - Zebras:
Their zebras had a white background behind them wherever they were active so you couldn't see what was going on in the picture. If you had zebras at flesh tone you might not see much at all.
From the video I saw on the web it looks like maybe you do that also. Is that true?

I like to keep zebras on when I shoot and am used to Sony viewfinders which allow you to still see the image behind the zebras. They have 2 zebras pointing in opposite directions and the one I put at flesh tone has the lines spaced wider so I really can see behind it pretty easily. Very unobtrusive and very helpful for exposure - especially in LOG . The small HD method made them pretty much unusable and I'm afraid that might be true for yours also.

REQUEST - Any chance you guys can change that or make it an option so that there needn't be a field of white or color behind the zebras?
Also I would love 2 zebras - most cameras do that nowadays.

Questions:
- Will your 3D LUT implementation include outputting the LUT through SDI OUT?
- Any chance you will provide an additional level of color adjustment like the Small HD has?. That's a very big deal for the FS7 which will only have 3 preset color balances in Slog making it difficult to see true picture on the set.

Not gonna lie, we need to do some work on our zebras. We have from the start and it's basically come down to everyone we ask wanting us to do work on other image analysis tools first. You are literally only the third person (including myself) who has asked such pointed questions about the zebras. Right now we only have one zebra and it does fairly obliterate to white what is behind it. We need to change that. We also need to implement the second zebra, and expand the range these zebras can cover. We do intend to do this but I cannot say when it will happen.

Our LUTs output over SDI and when we make them programmable LUTs they will do this as well. We will actually make it addressable so that the user can decide where a LUT is or is not applied, as there are SIX possible destinations (SDI-A Out, SDI-B Out, HDMI Out, OLED screen, ProRes recording, and Image Analysis Tools). Some of those might get grouped together as it can become confusing as well as eats up a lot of processing power.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the additional level of color adjustment. Certainly this is what the LUTs can be used for. You can create them in a common program such as Resolve and then load them into the Odyssey7Q. Hardly anyone uses LUTs for what they were originally intended for, which is a simple corrective alignment to a standard color space so that formats could be matched and aligned. These days everyone is using LUTs to create "looks" and are painting with them. It's not what the manufacturers and engineers originally intended, but screw them -- if this is the effective way you wish to use your tools then we're here to try and make our tool work best for you.

I think I answered your questions, but I'm not entirely sure. Please let me know.

 

[Mitch Gross]

For which you need the Sony Extension unit, the RAW license and a whole load of extra media. Vital points lost on many people.

4096 x 2160 resolution is a feature highlighted for firmware update in early 2015.

The 180p looks great for price point.

Thanks for the clarifications. I don't mean to mislead and it can be hard to keep track.

 

[Mitch Gross]

So, just to be clear; when you state, "up to 60p" what you actually mean is 23.98p, 25p, 29.97p, 50p and 59.94p are the only speeds available without the extension unit and not 1fps to 60fps? Again, I feel for many people, this needs spelling out, not least myself.

This is correct.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Mitch the camera outputs UHD at 422 true 10 bit via HDMI now. This is per the manual. 4k DCI is the same. Internal XAVC recording for DCI 4k is coming next month, per Sony. It does UHD now at 422 10 bit.

HFR HD at 180 fps I believe is at 600mbit internally. It's just as compressed (or not) as 4k/60 is, in cam. I need to verify that though.

So we will do the UHD in 10-bit if that's indeed what comes out of the camera.

The high frame rate is in a different form of compression than the standard frame rates. It is in a long-GOP form of XAVC called XAVC-L. This is different from the standard intraframe XAVC-i. Long-GOP takes a reference frame and then approximates a group of pictures (GOP) after it, only recording the differences from that reference frame. The problem with Long-GOP is when it has to deal with huge changes to the image in a short time, such as violent handheld movement, snap zooms or the explosive images one often records at high frame rates. If you plan to shoot surfing with breaking waves at 180p to the internal media, be prepared to see some artifactwing in the complicated fluid dynamics.

 

[Lenilenapi]

Thanks for being sensitive to the Zebra issue, jot really does make a difference if you like to use them.

With the FS7 I'm not thinking of LUT's so much for creating a look as just solving the "gotchas" , mainly being able to see LUT's in 4K - both for run & gun and to be able to show on a client monitor. That also becomes a big aid in exposure.

By extra level of color adjustment I'm referring to what the Small HD provides which is very cool - particularly for the FS7 where you are limited to only 3 color balances in CINE EI. The small HD has an extra level of adjustment on top of the LUT with 4 color wheel - for Gain , Gamma Lift and overall adjustment. Its a nice feature and well thought out. It will also send out some kind of file with the adjustment info in it as well. With FS7 this could help enormously on any set where the look didn't happen to meet those presets. I don't know how many colorists would bother with or need the extra file but at least the set would look right.

As I understand it your present LUT's for Slog a & 3 are not 3D LUTs yet. Is that correct and what difference does that make to what the pic looks like?

 

[Viddovation]

The high frame rate is in a different form of compression than the standard frame rates. It is in a long-GOP form of XAVC called XAVC-L. This is different from the standard intraframe XAVC-i. Long-GOP takes a reference frame and then approximates a group of pictures (GOP) after it, only recording the differences from that reference frame. The problem with Long-GOP is when it has to deal with huge changes to the image in a short time, such as violent handheld movement, snap zooms or the explosive images one often records at high frame rates. If you plan to shoot surfing with breaking waves at 180p to the internal media, be prepared to see some artifactwing in the complicated fluid dynamics.

Mitch, as an owner of the camera I can tell you the above is not correct - the PXW-FS7 will record up to 180fps in XAVC-Intra and up to 120fps in XAVC-Long-GOP. I know this personally as fact from owning the camera. You can see this documented virtually everywhere including this Sony page:
https://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-PXWFS7/

Mind you, I'm not personally sure if Sony pulls any line skipping, binning, or other DSP tricks with the high frame rate options over 60fps, but in terms of the recorded codec I can be authoritative.