720p or 1080i for Docu?

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nick_m_777

Member
Hello,

I am just about to start filming a documentary and this is my first time to use a newly acquired HVX200. So I am totally green when it comes to HD, variable frame rates, etc. My previous experience is a Sony PD-170. The intended destination for the Doc is DVD and internet right now but I really am hoping to get it on a network and perhaps screened in some independent theaters.

So my question right now is particularly about 720p vs 1080i. I like the lower space requirements and variable frame possibilities (if I even need them) of shooting in 720pn, but yet have heard that 1080i is what most networks want and that it looks better due to larger resolution. What I need help with is:

-Is there any realistic need for variable frame rates in a documentary?
-Does that overrule the better resolution of 1080i?
-Is 1080i even any better than 720p?
-Is it true that most networks require 1080i?
-Can 720p be "uprezzed" to 1080i with excellent results or am I better off shooting 1080i from the beginning?
-Bottom line, what is your recommendation?

Anyone with plenty of experience doing this type of work with the HVX200, please help.

Many thanks!
 
Variable frame rates depends on what you are shooting. You may or may not need them.

IMO 1080i is not better then 720p but the HVX also does 1080p. On the HVX 1080p has about 15-20% more resolution then 720p and much less compression in the signal. You get about a gig a minute on the P2 cards so it requires much more space. If Image quality is of the upmost importance then go with 1080p. If space is a big concern go 720/24pN.
 
nick_m_777 said:
Hello,

I am just about to start filming a documentary and this is my first time to use a newly acquired HVX200. So I am totally green when it comes to HD, variable frame rates, etc. My previous experience is a Sony PD-170. The intended destination for the Doc is DVD and internet right now but I really am hoping to get it on a network and perhaps screened in some independent theaters.

So my question right now is particularly about 720p vs 1080i. I like the lower space requirements and variable frame possibilities (if I even need them) of shooting in 720pn, but yet have heard that 1080i is what most networks want and that it looks better due to larger resolution. What I need help with is:

-Is there any realistic need for variable frame rates in a documentary?
-Does that overrule the better resolution of 1080i?
-Is 1080i even any better than 720p?
-Is it true that most networks require 1080i?
-Can 720p be "uprezzed" to 1080i with excellent results or am I better off shooting 1080i from the beginning?
-Bottom line, what is your recommendation?

Anyone with plenty of experience doing this type of work with the HVX200, please help.

Many thanks!
Click to expand...

Nick,

With all do respect I asked the same question before and here is what I have been told.

Lov the 24p look but it won't work for me.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=120432
 
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William, is it even possible to edit 1080p in Final Cut Pro 5.1.4? I have read an Apple document on 5.0.4 and it says 1080p and 1080pa are not supported.

Many thanks!
 
Ihave been shooing about 9 months on the HVX200 and early on I did some tests. first off you only get the amount of resolution available from the chips and lens. This camera has 960 x 540 pixel sensors (I think thats correct) so even at 720p it's up-sampled. I have found that at 720/24pN I get the best image as well as the most record time on the cards. The picture isn't sharper at 1080i or p since it is up-sampled a lot. It's just more pixels but not more resolution. I just did an awards ceremony and had some interviews projected onto a 40 ft wide screen and the images I shot at 720/24pN looked a lot better than the 1080 from live cameras in the venue. I was pleasantly surprised to say the least. Shoot some tests under the conditions you think you'll be shooting under and try 720/24pN and 1080p24 and decide for yourself. Also media time is a big thing as well, at 720/24pN I get 22 min per 8GB card and only 4 min at 720p60 or 1080p/i so this could have a bearing on your decision as well.

My favorite stock setting is Cine D, looks great out of the box. To me anyway.

Good luck
Robert C. Fisher
Cinematographer
 
Robert,
I really appreciate your input. I have heard just enough talk along these lines to suspect that perhaps the 1080 was no better. I also like the longer shooting time and variable frame rates in 720pN.

One more question...do you use a diffusion filter (like the Tiffen Soft F/X 3)? Is this a good idea with the HVX while shooting HD?

Thanks
 
I think that the HVX has enough inherent softness to not require a diffusion filter. Not that it is "soft" but it has an organic look that is very pleasing.
 
Sorry but the simple fact is, 1080 is sharper and less compressed than 720. Choose 720 if you want more space on the cards, but don't choose it because you think it's a better image!
 
Hummm...Decisions, decisions.

From what I can gather, it sounds like the large screen could make some difference between the two, but not much. And so I think the main consideration that is plaguing me is about what formats the networks will accept. It sounds like 1080 (i or p?) is the one that most are requiring. If I knew that there was a very good way to upconvert to 1080 with excellent quality from 720p, I think I would go that route.

One item that would be helpful to know right now is exactly which stations are requiring 1080 and which are requiring 720p. And are even the SD stations requiring HD for future use, or can a production simply be downrezzed to SD in that case?

Also, if I were to shoot in 1080p, and then downconvert to 720p in case my doc was accepted on one of those 720p stations, what would the quality turn out like? Would it be as good as simply shooting in 720p?

I know, a lot of questions. I'm just trying to find the ropes for all this HD stuff. Thanks guys for your patience.
 
nick_m_777 said:
It sounds like 1080 (i or p?) is the one that most are requiring. If I knew that there was a very good way to upconvert to 1080 with excellent quality from 720p, I think I would go that route.
Click to expand...

There is, it's called the Aja Kona 3. RT cross conversion of 720 to 1080 and it looks amazingly great, I do it all of the time. I rarely shoot 1080 because it's 1 GB per minute at 1080 and I need too many P2 cards for an average shoot.

With the HVX, the quality of your composition and lighting will make something look significantly better or worse more so than 720 vs 1080. I am shooting a documentary that is planned for a theatrical release/filmout to 35mm and in tests, the 720 24PN with good lighting looks amazing on film.

Dan
 
Ignoring cameras and just looking at the performance, 720p and 1080i have nearly the same amount of picture information. 1080p has much more.

If you're shooting for filmout, consider 1080p. Otherwise I'd shoot 720p.

If you shot 100% on an HVX, you'd probably never get HD broadcast on the major HD networks anyway. The networks that are requiring 1080i are shooting on cameras starting at twice the cost of the HVX, leaving the HVX as acceptable for a percentage of the total program.
 
Professor U, just out of curiosity what ARE the cameras that are acceptable to the big HD networks -- the big Sony F900s and Varicams? Do you think the HPX500 or other P2 Panasonics would be acceptable? Thanks.
 
Anybody will take the footage from f900s, varicams, thomson viper, etc. If you shoot to HDCAM or HDCAM SR, you're set.
If you shot something amazing on the HVX you could master it to D5 HD and they might take it. Each network is different. I've heard that Discovery HD is among the snobbiest.
 
ProfessorU said:
Anybody will take the footage from f900s, varicams, thomson viper, etc. If you shoot to HDCAM or HDCAM SR, you're set.
If you shot something amazing on the HVX you could master it to D5 HD and they might take it. Each network is different. I've heard that Discovery HD is among the snobbiest.
Click to expand...

I still can't figure out why Discovery gives a big thumbs up to XDCAM HD. It's a crappy 4:2:0 long GOP 35mbps format, granted, that can look good, no disputing, but they get a little snobby about DVCProHD unless it's from a Varicam or 2000/3000.

There are lots of cable shows shot on the HVX though, my favorite looking one so far as was "Feasting on Asphalt" with Alton Brown on Food Network. They got a really nice look for that and it was shot mostly on HVXs and lipstick cams for the motorcycle shots. I have had shows I DP'd run on A&E, TCM and a couple of other broadcasts that were entirely DVX and or HVX, it all gets down to how good your shooting/lighting is and how much they want your material. I think camera/format is more of an issue for doing a series. For one-offs like I have done, it wasn't an issue, but if a network signs you for a series, yeah, you gotta play by their rules, which in many cases will be they only want to see stuff shot on primarily 2/3" chip cameras, regardless of format. They don't like to see too much from HDV or HVX level cameras. The EX-1 will be an interesting case since it does shoot the preferred format and does have at least 1/2" chips. Anyone hear of anything being shot for broadcast/cable with the EX-1 yet?

Dan
 
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Yes, the Discovery Channel and A&E Channel will accept an HVX as a B cam but the footage cannot exceed 25% of the total footage.
 
I'm shooting a feature doc and we ran tests and amazingly enough yes 1080P looks way better then 720P.

No brainer.
 
I bought my HVX in April 2007; the manual doesn't mention 1080P, only 1080i. Is this because it's an older version or is there a technique for getting it to record 1080P?
 
I realize that everyone's replies to this question (and all inquiries) are with the best intentions...but does anyone actually have any links to any supporting documents regarding 'acceptable formats' from network websites? I've found this one, although now a couple of years old, on the Discovery HD Canada website. I'm looking for updated documents like this one:

www.exn.ca/producersguide/HDSpec.logo.doc

I, too, am starting to shoot a documentary on an HVX, and simply need some hard evidence to answer this same question (as well as the "is the HVX accepted as a DVCPro format?" question, the "Can I shoot it all on an HVX?" question, etc, etc). Any links to any up-to-date broadcaster's documents would be much appreciated.
Cheers.
 
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