60i in 24p timeline....

S

suprateam

Member
Hi, I did a quick search (well, it was a bit half-assed) and nothing came up, so...

I've got 24pa and 60i clips mixed on the timeline. The project is set for 24p. The 24p footage looks great of course and the 60i looks jumpy. What is the best way to treat the 60i footage. I read the help and selected as deinterlace method: interpolate fields (since it's sports action). Then in the help it says change the switches to no resample. ok, but I've got 65 60i clips and changing each one isn't very appealing, and no, I can't write scripts.
any thoughts?
 
Change your project settings to 60i. You can do it on the fly (though you might have to manually change the frame ruler).
 
ok, but since I have 60i and 24p mixed on the timeline won't changing it all to 60i lessen the 24p quality?

or does that not really matter since the output will be dvd?
 
No, it won't lessen the quality. It will be fine. The footage won't match, but you can make it work with creative editing.
 
Thanks for the super quick replies Jubal!
So, to get this straight in my head, when mixing 24p and 60i ->60i timeline
24p only -> 24p timeline
when mixing 24p, 30p & 60i -> i guess 60i timeline
ok, what about when mixing 24p & 30p??? I've read many posts about guys doing weddings in different framerates...
 
Mixing 24p and 30p could probably be done in either . . . but I want to say it's still better in 60i because of the frame rate . . . but then, they're both progressive, so a progressive timeline will theoretically keep the full resolution . . . . hmm . . .
 
I did a search before posting my question and came up with this thread. This is exactly what I am faced with right now. Vegas has always done a wonderful job with being able to just throw the video on the timeline and have it work out, but I just did a wedding and need to mix 30p with 24p and want to know the best method of working with it in vegas to maximize my image quality. I am working with it on a 24p timeline right now and it seems to be working out fine....I certainly don't get the full frame speed as far as having the 30p look a lot more fluid. I guess another option would be to work with it both on a 30p timeline? I just wondered if anyone else had any other knowledge or experience in this area.
 
Jubal28 said:
Mixing 24p and 30p could probably be done in either . . . but I want to say it's still better in 60i because of the frame rate . . . but then, they're both progressive, so a progressive timeline will theoretically keep the full resolution . . . . hmm . . .
Click to expand...

Theoretically and realistically, no. One will have to have frames interpolated to match the other in either case.

Putting 24pa footage on a 60i timeline will again result in non-progressive video, and will be more stuttery than 24p(normal) on a 60i timeline. You would actually get better results, I think, by actually removing pulldown from the 24pa stream and then letting Vegas do a true 2:3 pulldown. Unless it automatically does this, but I'm having my doubts. None of these "automatic" conversions are well documented anyplace I can find, and it's obviously not working for supra.

In general, 24p and 30p is a bad mix! If you have to mix cameras that don't all support 24p, it's best to stick to multiples of 30; if you really want a 24p look for "some of it", stick to 24p and 60i. But if you think about the frame mangling necessary to blend 24p and 30p fps either way, it's the ugliest combo.
 
I rendered out some of the 30p on a 24p timeline to a dvd architect 24p mpeg2 file and it looks very good to me. I am just asking in case there is something even better than this method.
 
I, too, have never had a problem converting 30p to 24p and having it come out fine. Mixing framerates is always going to result in some sort of compromise somewhere (math being math), but Vegas does a superb job.

ullanta, Vegas removes the pulldown. You appear to be on a quest to prove that Vegas doesn't really edit 24p, but it does. I don't know what suprateam's problem was or why 60i would look "jumpy" on his 24p timeline; I've mixed and matched many times with no problems. It's true that it took a little more work in Vegas 4, but it was improved in Vegas 5, and is even better now in Vegas 6, to the point of being transparent.
 
Jubal28 said:
ullanta, Vegas removes the pulldown. You appear to be on a quest to prove that Vegas doesn't really edit 24p, but it does.
Click to expand...
No, I have no doubt it does. I really am trying to understand what goes on in there. I mean, if you put 24p (encoded by the DVX as 60i) into a 60i timeline... well, it would be stupid to remove the pulldown. If it's 24pa, for best effect, it would be constantly removing 2:3:3:2 pulldown and re-inserting 2:3:2:3 pulldown. I mean, in the 60i timeline, it needs pulldown. It's 60i.

The thing is, I have no doubt that Vegas does something to mix'n'match these framerates, and that in some cases people are happy with it. But knowing that there are a number of different ways to deal with the mixing and matching, I'd really like to know more than that it does "something". And as you know I've tried, but have been unable to get an answer as to what exactly it's doing. Because, though you say

I don't know what suprateam's problem was or why 60i would look "jumpy" on his 24p timeline
Click to expand...
it's clear from the very basics of 24p vs 60i why it's very likely for it to be "jumpy", and knowing exactly what's going on would help one deal with it.
 
ullanta said:
I'd really like to know more than that it does "something". And as you know I've tried, but have been unable to get an answer as to what exactly it's doing.
Click to expand...
Vegas is a framerate-agnostic editor. It knows how many frames there are per second in any file, and how many frames per second there are on the timeline. It will conform the file to match the timeline. So, for example, if you're on a 60i timeline and you drop a 15-frame-per-second web animation (like a .wmv, for example) it'll automatically duplicate (or interpolate) frames to round-out the sequence.

And if you're on a 15-frame-per-second timeline, and you drop an NTSC video file on the timeline, it'll know to drop every other frame (or supersample and merge/blend frames, whatever you want it to do) to conform to the 15fps timeline.

So with 24PA it knows that it is a 23.976fps file. The Panasonic camera (and presumably the XL2) sets a "flag" in the user bits in the DV data stream for each frame, that tells the codec whether this is a valid frame or a duplicate. Vegas just skips the duplicate frame. It knows the timebase of the file, and it knows how to search through the file to find valid frames and ignore duplicate frames (not truly "duplicate", but you get the meaning).

So the behavior Vegas uses is dependent on the "allow pulldown removal" checkbox in Preferences. Presuming that that checkbox is "cleared", then all DVX files are treated as 60i. In a 60i timeline, Vegas sees the file as 60i, and it completely ignores any pulldown or flags or anything, it treats it as 60i. Now, if "allow pulldown removal" is checked ON, then Vegas knows how to remove pulldown. If it's in a 60i timeline, it won't bother: the flag isn't "always remove pulldown", it's "allow to remove pulldown". But if you're in a 24p timeline, it knows how to remove pulldown and will do so, to get the file to conform to the 24p timebase.

That's the thing I love about Vegas -- you can put any frame rate, any file size, any resolution, any file format, any whatever on the timeline, and it just works. It'll supersample to create new frames if necessary, it'll skip pulldown or skip frames to reduce the framerate if necessary, etc. You can put .movs or Flash .swfs or high-def MPEG-2 .m2t's or DVD .vob's straight on the timeline, mix and match 'em to your heart's content, and it always just works.
 
We are discussing trying to mix frame rates on a single timeline.... but in the event that one would like to render out seperate clips for use on a dvd where there is no mixing.... Working with the 24p on a 24p timeline and rendering out a 24p mpeg2. Then, working with the 30p on a 30p timeline and rendering out a 30p mpeg2 - and use those in architect as seperate tracks on a dvd.... this would work and there would be no compromise right? The dvd player will play one clip using its correct settings and the other with its correct settings..........right? How would you go about rendering out the 30p mpeg2? I have never worked with 30p for dvd use before..... I guess you could choose the "HD 720-30p" preset and then change the dimensions to 720 x 480. OR it would seem most logical to me to choose the standard "DVD Architect NTSC video stream" preset and then change the field order to progressive only. Am I correct in these assumptions? That 1. The dvd player will play each clip according to its set properties and NOT (using one fixed settings to play both clips) and 2. The settings to encode the mpeg2 using the "DVD Architect NTSC video stream" are the standard way to encode 30p footage and it will be the most compatible with dvd players.
 
I don't remember if there is such a thing as a 30p DVD clip. Might just have to render it as 60i.

Yes, the DVD player will know to swap between clip modes; you can author a DVD with 24p clips and 60i clips and the DVD player will play each clip back "properly". There are examples of that on the DVX DVD; some of the clips are 24p and some are 60i, and each clip plays back in its proper mode. You can also put 16:9 clips and 4:3 clips on the same DVD, and as long as you encode each clip individually they will play back properly.
 
Vegas Rocks

Vegas Rocks

Barry_Green said:
Vegas is a framerate-agnostic editor. It knows how many frames there are per second in any file, and how many frames per second there are on the timeline. It will conform the file to match the timeline. So, for example, if you're on a 60i timeline and you drop a 15-frame-per-second web animation (like a .wmv, for example) it'll automatically duplicate (or interpolate) frames to round-out the sequence.

And if you're on a 15-frame-per-second timeline, and you drop an NTSC video file on the timeline, it'll know to drop every other frame (or supersample and merge/blend frames, whatever you want it to do) to conform to the 15fps timeline.

So with 24PA it knows that it is a 23.976fps file. The Panasonic camera (and presumably the XL2) sets a "flag" in the user bits in the DV data stream for each frame, that tells the codec whether this is a valid frame or a duplicate. Vegas just skips the duplicate frame. It knows the timebase of the file, and it knows how to search through the file to find valid frames and ignore duplicate frames (not truly "duplicate", but you get the meaning).

So the behavior Vegas uses is dependent on the "allow pulldown removal" checkbox in Preferences. Presuming that that checkbox is "cleared", then all DVX files are treated as 60i. In a 60i timeline, Vegas sees the file as 60i, and it completely ignores any pulldown or flags or anything, it treats it as 60i. Now, if "allow pulldown removal" is checked ON, then Vegas knows how to remove pulldown. If it's in a 60i timeline, it won't bother: the flag isn't "always remove pulldown", it's "allow to remove pulldown". But if you're in a 24p timeline, it knows how to remove pulldown and will do so, to get the file to conform to the 24p timebase.

That's the thing I love about Vegas -- you can put any frame rate, any file size, any resolution, any file format, any whatever on the timeline, and it just works. It'll supersample to create new frames if necessary, it'll skip pulldown or skip frames to reduce the framerate if necessary, etc. You can put .movs or Flash .swfs or high-def MPEG-2 .m2t's or DVD .vob's straight on the timeline, mix and match 'em to your heart's content, and it always just works.
Click to expand...


Exactly why I switched to Vegas... it tells you what it's doing (removing 2-3-3-2 pulldown, etc) and it just works...

-Paul Del Vecchio
 
Barry_Green said:
Vegas is a framerate-agnostic editor. It knows how many frames there are per second in any file, and how many frames per second there are on the timeline. It will conform the file to match the timeline. So, for example, if you're on a 60i timeline and you drop a 15-frame-per-second web animation (like a .wmv, for example) it'll automatically duplicate (or interpolate) frames to round-out the sequence.
Click to expand...
Aha! This may be obvious to other users, but I just got an idea!

Say I want to speed up the editing/prerendering time. Can I do a rough edit in 12fps, and when I am done with that, change the timeline to 24fps (i.e., 23.976) and finish it there? Would there be a noticeable increase in response/performance?

I will definitely try that, but if anyone (Barry? David?) has an opinion, I'd love to hear it.
 
Well... I guess it would work. Haven't tried that. All the clips will still be active, and so changing the timebase would probably work. You may find yourself wishing to go in and fine-tune all your cut-points though, after changing to the 24fps timebase...

I don't know if it would get you any more speed however. (just thinking out loud, I haven't tried it). Vegas plays back as fast as it can anyway -- so if you're pushing the system farther than it can go, it might end up playing back at 22 or 19 or 12fps anyway. So starting in 12fps might not gain you much, and may in fact just artificially limit you more than you otherwise would have been.
 
Barry_Green said:
Vegas plays back as fast as it can anyway -- so if you're pushing the system farther than it can go, it might end up playing back at 22 or 19 or 12fps anyway. So starting in 12fps might not gain you much, and may in fact just artificially limit you more than you otherwise would have been.
Click to expand...
Okay, good to know. I noticed that when you have several video tracks, it sort of plays catch - say half a second plays smooth, then it jumps. I thought with lower frame rate, the fewer frames/tracks would result in a less jumpy play back. I hope I didn't dream this... :grin:

Yes, it's clear that the cut points would need revisiting anyway. In any case, it's an idea I'll have to try.
 
Barry_Green said:
I don't remember if there is such a thing as a 30p DVD clip. Might just have to render it as 60i.
Click to expand...

If there is such a thing as a 30p DVD clip (I don't think so), DVD Architect won't do it.
 
Barry_Green said:
And if you're on a 15-frame-per-second timeline, and you drop an NTSC video file on the timeline, it'll know to drop every other frame (or supersample and merge/blend frames, whatever you want it to do) to conform to the 15fps timeline.
Click to expand...

Barry - thanks, this is getting very close to what I want to know. Can you just explain to me how the "drop every other frame OR merge/blend" choice is handled, and how much flexibility there is in the choice?

And, for my 24pA example, how much flexibility can be specified... that is, if I have, say, mixed 24p and 24pA on a 60i timeline, will it remove 2332 pulldown from the 24pA parts and insert 2323 pulldown, leaving the 24p parts alone?

And, most importantly, does one have any control over when in the chain processing is applied? Can one choose to, say, apply filters to native frames before interpolation or to generated frames after?
 
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