5K camera for $1000?

MichaelTiemann said:
Tactically, yes. Tactical freebies are wonderful, and no sense blowing off a gift from a competitor.



Since this is presidential election season and careful parsing is a high art, I could be timid and say "yes, but". But really the answer is "if you believe his post, which is that he has earned back his NRE and can now price the camera differently whilst sustaining the business, then indeed RED could be able to price across a really wide spectrum. Many companies have learned that R&D doesn't scale linearly: you hire a bunch of smart people, 99% of their ideas are dumb, but the 1% are a game changer. You don't then go an hire 2x more R&D people hoping to get to 2% smart, or even 2x more smart ideas. YOU PLAY AS HARD AND FAST AS YOU CAN WITH THE NEWLY CHANGED RULES. RED do have a pricing decision to make, which is really, how many R&D people do they want to invest in (hint--not many, and only the best), how much profit is needed to keep the business sustainable through a variety of situations, and then they have the choice how to to distribute the remaining $$: dividends (Jim is already a billionaire and doesn't need an income stream to fund his retirement)? excess cash in the bank (that earns 0% interest)? Or back into the hands of customers, that will then continue to change the game.



I don't own a RED, though I have been thinking about it. I have a pair of AF100s as my low-cost prototyping platform. Now I'm ready to step up. Do I step up to SONY? CANON? or RED? It depends on short and long-term value, and I'm a big believer that RED has a fundamental competitive advantage in terms of their modular strategy. The big news is that the mortgage on their modular strategy has been paid off. They are now free to innovate without the huge overhang. That opens up a far wider range of options than are available to pricing wizards in Tokyo trying to figure out how to sell the least amount of camera for the most amount of money. Jim wants to sell the most amount of camera for the least amount of money, because he cares about filmmaking. And he wants to do so profitably because that makes the business sustainable.



I'll bet you $1 than six months from now, there will be a substantial opinion--beyond the so-called fan-boys--that my interpretation of RED's actions is more accurate than yours.



Bring it on ;-)



Indeed. Canon is playing a different game, and I believe you are absolutely correct that the market is adjusting their spreadsheet predictions in real-time. Canon guessed wrong, and they are "paying" via a mechanism of incremental price reduction. RED is going to zap the price once, they're going to do it big, and either they will reach a new economic efficiency level and lower it again, or they will find that they did redefine the market and force the monoliths into a very difficult match-up with the masters of modular.
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much of what you write makes pretty good sense to me on most days if im reading considering the trickling upgrades from pany, sony, canon etc...but, it such a huge coincidence that this hit just ****one day before RED will adjust their prices***. now, anyone here still want to say that RED lowered their prices because they have a big heart for their customers? i dont buy it for a minute. this is comical. honestly i think jannard would have done better to just lower the prices without this long winded bullsh$t story about caring about their customers. it really sounded silly. with all of that said i have complete respect for RED as a very competent camera company as far as their gear goes. still, i think the way things work over there is so so silly.

http://blog.creativevideo.co.uk/2012/10/sonys-newf-cameras-revealed-f5-f55/
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/show-highend/resource.solutions.bbsccms-assets-show-highend-F5.shtml
 
maranfilms said:
Naw, I do love Red cams though, I just cant get over the way some people act like it's a family or something if you own a Red.
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I agree.

It's a cult . . . And I don't mean that in a negative way.

Think, Jim Jannard = Steve Jobs (visionary), and Red = Apple . . . a proprietary hardware manufacturer who makes uniquely cool things that work!
 
dregenthal said:
I agree.

It's a cult . . . And I don't mean that in a negative way.

Think, Jim Jannard = Steve Jobs (visionary), and Red = Apple . . . a proprietary hardware manufacturer who makes uniquely cool things that work!
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jannard = jobs? naw. i could debate that.

david
 
They are not dropping prices because the camera has become cheaper, they are dropping prices simply because they have no choice. Who is going to spend tens of thousands on an Epic when you can get a Blackmagic for 3000 or an F3 for 12000. Let's face it, RED had something with the RED ONE, but they missed the boat by not releasing the SCARLET on time and by catering to high end users with the EPIC. Also the fact they made announcements which never came true (specifically on the Scarlet) they quickly lost credibility. I think if it were not for the strong following of the RED ONE, the company would be out of business. And they know it.
 
Sometime you have to ask yourself if you are in a kinder garden when you see people reaction in camera forum. I am sure some still believe in Santa until now. To believe that RED has just decided to decrease its price the day after a competitor releases competitive product is just some act of generosity is plain foolish. If I was Sony I would not release the price for the next two days and see how red reacts when all there fanboys are going to ask for the rebate. I would even be meaner, I would wait a week and send all sort of contradictory unofficial numbers to let RED in a guessing game and play at their own game. Or even send a high-up MSRP and just put a 30% street price when RED releases their rebate price.

I am not against red the tech company at all. They have chosen their market and it is ok, because we now have a set of alternatives that cater for every segment of the market. Red is putting some very interesting tech, but I can't bear the religion that goes with it.
 
If I was looking at the looming commoditization of 4k raw technology and a high probability of a severe global economic downturn I would want to lock in a large number of sales ASAP.
 
Its getting bloody to be in the cinema camera biz right now. Its great for non-pros like me.

If the rumors are true about $15k for the F5 then can you imagine what a used Red MX package will be going for in the next 3 months...
 
Samuel H said:
I like how your brain works, Daniel. Does it take a lot of training to be so MEAN?? :)
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No need too, it is just a natural response to the level of fanboyism that we see in the Camera forums :D. I mean contrary to cell phone or electronic gadget, in the end of it is an art. To see this level of childish behavior etc is insane. Some of the red fanboys are just waiting for red to pounce, or at least they think, and the situation I describe above would be comical. Imagine them just waiting and waiting for red to give them the price because they did not get the Sony price. Imagine the outroar as they are force to wait and as they think that this announcement has nothing to do with Sony. It is just some humanitarian act by red boss. I just believe that In fact it is not Janard that they should thank, but Sony because of just, you know.... plain simple competition.
 
It's interesting. I have personal associations in RED Digital's team and they are not stupid people. They read the writing on the wall and my prediction that the legacy Video Camera Makers and surprise surprise, DSLR makers would eventually catch up to RED's breakthroughs in HD has come to pass.
I also predicted that the legacy makers, due to their wide and deep market reach would force RED out of the business ( but not Arri ). I do hope that does not happen because RED Digital has made a massive contribution to the HD video industry as well as to faith in American ingenuity , entrepreneurship and design.
In my dreams, RED Digital sell out to Sony or Canon to add much needed 'designer' cache to a legacy of hobbled cameras.
RED got the MODULARITY aspect of next-gen cameras down. Most of these other makers have not.
 
Amadou said:
They are not dropping prices because the camera has become cheaper, they are dropping prices simply because they have no choice. Who is going to spend tens of thousands on an Epic when you can get a Blackmagic for 3000 or an F3 for 12000. Let's face it, RED had something with the RED ONE, but they missed the boat by not releasing the SCARLET on time and by catering to high end users with the EPIC. Also the fact they made announcements which never came true (specifically on the Scarlet) they quickly lost credibility. I think if it were not for the strong following of the RED ONE, the company would be out of business. And they know it.
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What are you talking about? Have you not seen or heard about movies being shot on the Epic? Like Prometheus or The Hobbit trilogy? What's wrong with going after the hgh end of the market?

This just sounds like an "I can't afford it so I'm going to complain about it" rant.
 
maranfilms said:
I was over there to read what people are saying. Honestly, It seems like a contest. Who can ass kiss Jim the most thread. omg it's laughable. One guy's talking about how the Red community ows JIM and Jarred a beer because he lowered the price on a cam that been out over a year now.

Geez, I think if I were Jim, I would be sick to my stomach to read such transparent brown nosing from complete strangers.
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Personally, I think most celebrities are sickened by the throngs that adore them.
 
I think it is quite funny and very telling about people's true desires when 5 years ago almost everyone on this board (where RED started its presence) was gaga over the RED ONE. Then when they announced 3k for 3k and they were world saviors. How could Panasonic, Sony, Canon possibly keep up!? Then when RED got sensible and decided to cater only to pros everyone who couldn't afford one got personally offended and instantly people who owned a RED or defended its merits were labeled "fanboys." As Roxics said it does sound like "I can't afford it so I'm going to complain about it" situation.

If RED didn't do what they did 5 years ago none of these cameras would be out - and certainly not for the low prices they sell for. Don't like the cameras? Fine (if you've actually shot with one). Don't like the company? Fine (if you've actually dealt with them). The "Fanboys" and the "detractors" are two sides of the same coin. How easily people forget history.
 
Who names these threads? I thought it was about a new GoPro or something. The idea of an Epic being less than $20k is pretty absurd.

For the record, I never liked the R1, not the DR or the colors. I'd take the Blackmagic over it without a second thought.
 
mail4joeg said:
The idea of an Epic being less than $20k is pretty absurd.
For the record, I never liked the R1, not the DR or the colors. I'd take the Blackmagic over it without a second thought.
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Yes on the 1st point.

Interesting viewpoint on the second. Are you talking about a bog standard R1 M or MX? And this is at the expense of ignoring everything else about the camera but just the image correct? Have you shot both side by side or are we going off compressed online footage (not an accusation, genuinely curious)?
 
William_Robinette said:
If RED didn't do what they did 5 years ago none of these cameras would be out - and certainly not for the low prices they sell for. Don't like the cameras? Fine (if you've actually shot with one). Don't like the company? Fine (if you've actually dealt with them). The "Fanboys" and the "detractors" are two sides of the same coin. How easily people forget history.
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Ya think? I'm thinking the the release of the 5DII is the one that threw the wrench through the glass ceiling and caused a major revision in the price performance barrier we see now. I know from reading Jim's rants, it was certainly a thorn in his side.
 
f64manray said:
Ya think? I'm thinking the the release of the 5DII is the one that threw the wrench through the glass ceiling and caused a major revision in the price performance barrier we see now. I know from reading Jim's rants, it was certainly a thorn in his side.
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I think trying to pin down such specifics is an exercise in futility. I do think the MKII had influence as well, how could it not? I do think that comparing a R1 and a MKII is an exercise in futility as well; one is a professional camera system that shoots films at 35mm quality for a price unheard of before and the other is a toy that found a home with a lot of people who didn't want to spend more then $3,000 on a camera or on productions who required very specifically it's small size.
 
Another minor point. RED Digital was founded, as many know, by the same genius behind Oakley glasses. It's very unfortunate that the verrrrry easy time Oakley had reaching the top and selling out to Luxxotica to the tune of 2.1 Billion is not likely to be repeated by RED
 
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