5DtoRGB Transcode - GH1 Works, AF101 Fails?

[Geoff Gilson]

Hi everyone,
I've got a lot of useful information from this forum, mostly passively so far, but this time I'd really appreciate some active advice on this particularly annoying problem:

I have been trying out 5DtoRGB (Windows version 1.5.4 Preview 32bit) to smooth the subsampled colour of 4:2:0 AVCHD - in the first case, from my GH1 (+firmware hack.) Good results.
I also have some footage shot on an AF101 which is low-key and contains mostly black and blue. As you can imagine, the blues show up blocky-looking. I have tried using the same version of 5DtoRGB; when I transcode some of these AF101 AVCHD files to any format, using any of the options, the encoder freezes at the final frame. I can press cancel, but the transcoded file is lost.

Here are example images from each transcode - GH1 and AF101:



Here are also the MediaInfo reports for both files:

[TABLE="class: outer_border"]
[TR]
[TD]General
ID : 0 (0x0)
Complete name : V:\GH1\PRIVATE\AVCHD\BDMV\STREAM\00005.MTS
Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 93.0 MiB
Duration : 50s 920ms
Overall bit rate : 15.3 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 108 Mbps

Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : No
Format settings, ReFrames : 1 frame
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 50s 980ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 14.5 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 16.6 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : NTSC
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.280
Stream size : 88.1 MiB (95%)

Audio
ID : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Codec ID : 129
Duration : 51s 8ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 192 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 1.17 MiB (1%)

[/TD]
[TD]General
ID : 1 (0x1)
Complete name : V:\AF101\PRIVATE\AVCHD\BDMV\STREAM\00027.MTS
Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 154 MiB
Duration : 58s 36ms
Overall bit rate : 22.3 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 24.0 Mbps

Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=4, N=24
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 58s 20ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 19.9 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 20.9 Mbps
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 50.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.431
Stream size : 137 MiB (89%)

Audio
ID : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : PCM
Format settings, Endianness : Big
Format settings, Sign : Signed
Muxing mode : Blu-ray
Codec ID : 128
Duration : 58s 80ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 1 536 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Delay relative to video : -60ms
Stream size : 10.6 MiB (7%)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

All of the GH1 files I've tried to transcode have worked, but many of the AF101 files fail. I have also noted that the longer files (~4 min or over) seem less likely to transcode sucessfully.
Resolution and frame rate don't seem to make any difference. Also I don't think the video content is making a difference, I rather suspect it's something in the codec details, or a software issue.

Can anybody lend some extra insight on how or why this is happening?

 

[dcloud]

it could be the PCM audio im not sure, shoot in ac3 on the af100 and check it.
if not, it could be the avchd settings & maybe 5dtorgb needs to update their software to support it

EDIT: checked the website and...
2011/08/13 - Audio support for MTS files in coming in the next Mac update

this could be it

 

[Thomas Worth]

it could be the PCM audio im not sure, shoot in ac3 on the af100 and check it.
if not, it could be the avchd settings & maybe 5dtorgb needs to update their software to support it

EDIT: checked the website and...
2011/08/13 - Audio support for MTS files in coming in the next Mac update

this could be it

I just made 1.5.2b available. It adds much-anticipated audio output support with MTS files. Also, there was a gamma bug in 1.5.1b that caused the image to come out too dark. That's been fixed.

My goal is to have footage transcoded with 5DtoRGB intercut seamlessly with Adobe's CS5 and CS5.5 products. I've spent some time tweaking the code to have 5DtoRGB's output match Adobe's as closely as possible.

Grab the new beta here:

http://rarevision.com/5dtorgb/

 

[dcloud]

just did an AF100 test render and the RGB output looks flat and sweet compared to adobe's native

is this how it supposed to look. thomas?

 

[Thomas Worth]

View attachment 38358View attachment 38359
just did an AF100 test render and the RGB output looks flat and sweet compared to adobe's native

is this how it supposed to look. thomas?

Put a histogram on the image and see if there is any information outside of 16-235.

I've noticed that the MTS importer in After Effects, for example, will import clips as broadcast range, not full range H.264. This may be appropriate in most cases since I suspect most cameras shoot broadcast range (16-235 in 8 bit terms), but I've noticed clipped highlights in some files. My feeling is that if there is indeed information up there (above 235), it should be retained. However, this can break compatibility with After Effects and Premiere. I guess I'll add an option that allows you to force the transcode at either broadcast range (16-235) or full range (0-255).

See the attached shots of an MTS file in After Effects CS5.5. As you can see from the histogram, AE is clipping the highlights whereas 5DtoRGB saves them. The picture is also slightly lower-contrast due to the transcode taking place at full range.

 

[ASG]

You can preserve stuff above 100 IRE in after effects by setting the project bit depth to 32 bit, then add a levels effect and set output white to 0.84.

 

[maarek]

My AE does not clip my 7d material. It keeps it at 0-255.

 

[dcloud]

yeah the information on the 5drgb is all within 100 IRE..
based on my image ae and premier clips it. like what you said... the information can be taken back but its annoying you have to put an effect on it :\ is there a faster way in AE/premiere?

 

[Geoff Gilson]

I just made 1.5.2b available. It adds much-anticipated audio output support with MTS files. Also, there was a gamma bug in 1.5.1b that caused the image to come out too dark. That's been fixed.

My goal is to have footage transcoded with 5DtoRGB intercut seamlessly with Adobe's CS5 and CS5.5 products. I've spent some time tweaking the code to have 5DtoRGB's output match Adobe's as closely as possible.

Grab the new beta here:

http://rarevision.com/5dtorgb/

Thanks for your efforts, Thomas.
I have compared the results of importing .MTS files into AE directly versus the 5DtoRGB .MOV files, and have concluded that the converted .MOV files are far superior, not only for their more pleasing colour detail, but also because they avoid the nasty bug I've noticed which messes up the sub-sampled colour by making it look like a mass of horizontal lines.

it could be the PCM audio im not sure, shoot in ac3 on the af100 and check it.
if not, it could be the avchd settings & maybe 5dtorgb needs to update their software to support it

EDIT: checked the website and...
2011/08/13 - Audio support for MTS files in coming in the next Mac update
this could be it

A pity the new version is for Mac only. Maybe I can borrow somebody's for half an hour...

I don't think it is the PCM audio. As I said, some of the AF101 files work, others don't. They're all from the shame shoot, the audio settings weren't changed. I don't have the camera now, it was a rental, so I can't test different audio settings.

JUST DISCOVERED -- I think I know better what's making 5DtoRGB crash now:
I have a mixture of 1080p and 720p shots from the same shoot. The 1080p converts successfully with 5DtoRGB, but none of the 720p shots work - they all make the encoder crash.
There's the root of the problem. The only difference I can see between the formats are the frame rates and GOP settings.

??

 

[Thomas Worth]

You can preserve stuff above 100 IRE in after effects by setting the project bit depth to 32 bit, then add a levels effect and set output white to 0.84.

For a good approximation of what 5DtoRGB does, set the project depth to 32 bit and then apply levels with the following settings:

Input Black: -0.0627
Output White: 0.9216

This appears to force After Effects to display the MTS file as full range. It matches the output from 5DtoRGB, anyway.

My AE does not clip my 7d material. It keeps it at 0-255.

That's correct. I was taking about MTS files written by other cameras.

A pity the new version is for Mac only. Maybe I can borrow somebody's for half an hour...

I just made 1.5.2b available. It'll output audio with MTS files now.

JUST DISCOVERED -- I think I know better what's making 5DtoRGB crash now:
I have a mixture of 1080p and 720p shots from the same shoot. The 1080p converts successfully with 5DtoRGB, but none of the 720p shots work - they all make the encoder crash.
There's the root of the problem. The only difference I can see between the formats are the frame rates and GOP settings.

Hmm. That doesn't sound good. Send me one of these files and I'll try to figure out what the problem is.

 

[dcloud]

thomas:
hmm Input black -.06 seems a bit too much from what i see...
output white to .84 seems to look more similar... :\

thomas, does only adobe have this kind of problem? apple or avid doesnt clip?

anyway, i love the output by 5Drgb.. the filesize and HD space on the other hand...

 

[Thomas Worth]

thomas:
hmm Input black -.06 seems a bit too much from what i see...
output white to .84 seems to look more similar... :\

These values are the ones I used in the screenshots I posted. The files were from a Canon Vixia, which writes MTS files:

Input Black: -0.0627
Output White: 0.9216

Sorry I cut off the levels filter so you couldn't see this.

thomas, does only adobe have this kind of problem? apple or avid doesnt clip?

I don't know. I haven't tested with Final Cut since I can't trust the combination of Apple's H.264 decoder and QuickTime to give an accurate result.

 

[dcloud]

These values are the ones I used in the screenshots I posted. The files were from a Canon Vixia, which writes MTS files:

OH ok i thought it was for the AF100.

 

[jakobim]

any news on the 5dtoRGB windows 1.5.5 update for the avchd fix ?

 

[simorq]

I'm having a problem: I'm press the "convert" buton but coming this error mesage and close:"5DtoRGB.exe has encountered a problem and needs to close. We are sorry for the inconvenience.

 

[Thomas Worth]

I'm having a problem: I'm press the "convert" buton but coming this error mesage and close:"5DtoRGB.exe has encountered a problem and needs to close. We are sorry for the inconvenience.

Try updating your video card / chipset drivers. If your drivers are old, it can cause problems with 5DtoRGB since it relies on the video card.