5DII DOES 1080P footage!!!!!!

[Bebel]

This is to funny. Jannard just announced that Scarlet specs won't be announced until November. This is coincidently the same time that the 5D MKII ships.

So what were looking at here is that Red isn't going to announce specs for Scarlet until Red can rip apart a 5D MKII. Canon is totally driving Red. That's how it seems to me anyway. I still don't think they will even get close to the sensor technology in the 5D MKII.

Jannard says November just to get specs on Scarlet to users. I'm betting it will be December before they even know what their dealing with in regards to the 5D sensor. If they can't match the the low light sensitivity as well as the size of the Canon sensor, I'm not interested in Scarlet no matter how manual the controls are or how great their codec is. It's all about the sensor. Its great to start with RAW for ultimate control of your image, but it's apparent that I will be able to adjust the 5D image in camera to my taste. Scarlet just got way cheaper.

It's evident that RED had to cancel SCARLET due to the sudden emergence of the latest DSLRs. RED is in deep s*** with SCARLET now!

Be aware that the massive "mysterium" CMOS chip is NOT produced by RED itself but by a "well-known CMOS expert". That's according to a serious german magazine (computervideo 3/2008). So who might be this well-known CMOS expert? Any idea?

 

[ydgmdlu]

Looks to me like timing wise we'd have to wait some more for the Scarlet though. 2010 sounds more realistic.

Jim Jannard also said, "If we're not caught up on orders by Fall 2009, then we suck."

RED said that their announcement of the changes to Epic and Scarlet was because they thought that they could make better cameras within the same time frame. RED fully expects to have working models at NAB. I highly doubt that they would let one DSLR (or two) totally screw up their game plan.

The fact that Epic is also being updated suggests that the whole matter is about more than trying to top a DSLR with crippled video recording capabilities. Right now, the only significant aspect in which Canon has RED beaten is low light. I can't buy the idea that RED would feel that its Epic camera (or even the RED One) would be threatened by any current DSLR, whose limitations have taken it out of the consideration of many professional videographers.

 

[ydgmdlu]

So what were looking at here is that Red isn't going to announce specs for Scarlet until Red can rip apart a 5D MKII. Canon is totally driving Red. That's how it seems to me anyway. I still don't think they will even get close to the sensor technology in the 5D MKII.

Why do you assume that the 5D MkII has some magic, groundbreaking sensor technology? Quite evidently, to me, the camera is just a DSLR with video recording enabled, just like the Nikon D90. And as we have seen from test footage, these cameras are far from perfect. They're not even good enough to be taken seriously by many videography and cinematography professionals.

If RED were really wanting to see how these new DSLRs do their "magic," they wouldn't have to wait until the 5D MkII ships. They could rip apart any high-end DSLR. What difference would it make? The 5D isn't even Canon's top DSLR.

And what about the changes to Epic? Anyone can see how the new DSLRs could threaten Scarlet, but what difference would they make to Epic's sales and customer base?

 

[Rubbersquare]

Whats a holga ?

a crappy camera with a plastic lens from lomo that takes very inconsistent, yet characteristic, pictures. i said it partly as a joke.

 

[Zack Birlew]

Its great to start with RAW for ultimate control of your image, but it's apparent that I will be able to adjust the 5D image in camera to my taste. Scarlet just got way cheaper.

uts on glasses:

Well, yes, that's all well and good, however, you forget that the 5D Mark II doesn't, at its current state, do 24p. Without that and you do decide to use the camera for your next film, you will essentially be cutting off ANY hopes of a theatrical distribution from several, if not all, distributors. Instead, you will most likely end up resorting to online release or DVD.

With the Scarlet, you'll have so many options you won't know what to do with them, before production, during production, and in post. You'll have more than enough resolution for the big screen and you'll have absolute total control of your image all the way through. Of course, things are changing, however, I believe Jim would aim higher and not take out anything that is already in Scarlet's arsenal (ie. 3K, variable frame rates, small form factor, etc.) but will instead focus on things that would only enhance Scarlet's design and, at most, focus a little on the interchangeable lens aspect.

The only thing the 5D Mark II has over the Scarlet is that it's coming out sooner. That's it. If Canon adds 24p, all it will be is a hold over until Scarlet comes out and, in that sense, RED has already won.

:Takes glasses off:

 

[ydgmdlu]

By the way, the Scarlet and Epic update announcement is coming in "early November." The 5D MkII won't ship until near the end of the month.

Sometimes a coincidence is just a coincidence. In this case, pointing out a connection is an embarrassingly ignorant exercise. Yes, the new Scarlet will be announced in the same month as the new 5D ships, but, as they say, the devil is in the details.

 

[Chris_TC]

By the way, the Scarlet and Epic update announcement is coming in "early November." The 5D MkII won't ship until near the end of the month.

Sometimes a coincidence is just a coincidence. In this case, pointing out a connection is an embarrassingly ignorant exercise. Yes, the new Scarlet will be announced in the same month as the new 5D ships, but, as they say, the devil is in the details.

Yeah, and what about the fact that there is a "new scarlet" to begin with? Coincidence too?

 

[f64manray]

Hm... that's suspicious indeed. If I understood correctly Jannard also said their update has nothing to do with the 5D release. Doesn't look like that now.

Why do you think the sensor will be inferior to the 5Ds?
The RED has better rolling shutter performance than the 5D, doesn't it? 5D wants to do photography in the first place and it's chip is made for that as well. It has the wrong framerate and no slomo. Don't you think a scarlet 35mm sensor would totally blow the 5D away?
Please explain your thoughts "it's all about the sensor". I'm interested.

Looks to me like timing wise we'd have to wait some more for the Scarlet though. 2010 sounds more realistic.

I'm a still photographer with about 20 years of experience and only deemed the digital world of photography suitable for my use about two years ago. I've been taking a crash course in Cinema cameras since these two DSLRS with (remarkable) video capability have been released, so feel free to correct me about any facts, but from my reading I think that Red One only has a ISO/ASA rating of about 500. And that's great as it was Red's intention to make a digital film camera that competes on the same playing field as a professional cinema film camera. They accomplished their objective admirably; however, even film cameras require a serious lighting set up and crew to produce great results. This is of course because of the low ISO rating.

A higher ISO rating like 6400 ASA (5D MKII) changes the game completely as far as what's required on set. It makes everything alot less labor intensive making professional results much more obtainable with less effort. Of course to get those professional results, you will need to insert a professional with a vision somewhere in that equation ie; me ;-). When you can get great results with nothing but studio strobe modeling lights and soft boxes, it's a new game. I don't believe even Red One can do that. 500 ISO just isn't enough. Vincent Laforet says if you you can see it, the 5D MKII can shoot it! I believe him after watching his movie. Very minimal lighting was used for that movie.

Yes it sucks that it's not fully manual, but it's manual enough. It has aperture priority. I love manual controls. Hell, I only started to let the camera meter for me a year ago.

It's all about creative vision and content. The more I can cut out the technical work load between that vision and the final result the better it is. Andy Warhol would be all over this camera (5D MKII) if you gave him a choice between the Red One and 5D. Hopefully, they'll add 24p. If not, oh well. it won't make my vision any less compelling.

Please, as far as rolling shutter is concerned, I'll try to keep those whip pans to a minimum. It's good to see the limits of something like that, but come on people, this rolling shutter thing is rediculus. It's obviously not a concern on the D5. The proof is in the movie.

It's really not about the gear. ........really. The gear needs to meet a minimum standard. The 5D meets that for me. If Scarlet is better, I'll buy that in addition to this superb pro still DSLR.

 

[f64manray]

Why do you assume that the 5D MkII has some magic, groundbreaking sensor technology? Quite evidently, to me, the camera is just a DSLR with video recording enabled, just like the Nikon D90. And as we have seen from test footage, these cameras are far from perfect. They're not even good enough to be taken seriously by many videography and cinematography professionals.

If RED were really wanting to see how these new DSLRs do their "magic," they wouldn't have to wait until the 5D MkII ships. They could rip apart any high-end DSLR. What difference would it make? The 5D isn't even Canon's top DSLR.

And what about the changes to Epic? Anyone can see how the new DSLRs could threaten Scarlet, but what difference would they make to Epic's sales and customer base?

You're incorrect. Their isn't another sensor that is quite as good as the 5D MKII. It's ground breaking and changes the game even in still photography when it comes to low light ability. even the 1Ds doesn't compare. I'm sure the the 1Ds MK IV will be coming shortly. Probably 40mp with HD video and XLR audio inputs on the side ;-).

I'm not concerned about Epic. I'm not spending that kind of money.

 

[f64manray]

It's evident that RED had to cancel SCARLET due to the sudden emergence of the latest DSLRs. RED is in deep s*** with SCARLET now!

Be aware that the massive "mysterium" CMOS chip is NOT produced by RED itself but by a "well-known CMOS expert". That's according to a serious german magazine (computervideo 3/2008). So who might be this well-known CMOS expert? Any idea?

Sony? maybe. They sell their stuff to Nikon.

 

[f64manray]

uts on glasses:

Well, yes, that's all well and good, however, you forget that the 5D Mark II doesn't, at its current state, do 24p. Without that and you do decide to use the camera for your next film, you will essentially be cutting off ANY hopes of a theatrical distribution from several, if not all, distributors. Instead, you will most likely end up resorting to online release or DVD.

With the Scarlet, you'll have so many options you won't know what to do with them, before production, during production, and in post. You'll have more than enough resolution for the big screen and you'll have absolute total control of your image all the way through. Of course, things are changing, however, I believe Jim would aim higher and not take out anything that is already in Scarlet's arsenal (ie. 3K, variable frame rates, small form factor, etc.) but will instead focus on things that would only enhance Scarlet's design and, at most, focus a little on the interchangeable lens aspect.

The only thing the 5D Mark II has over the Scarlet is that it's coming out sooner. That's it. If Canon adds 24p, all it will be is a hold over until Scarlet comes out and, in that sense, RED has already won.

:Takes glasses off:

All of that will be mute for many if it doesn't meet or at least come close to the low light capability of the 5D MKII. It's performance is stunning.

 

[kenn michael]

...but the video compression of the 5D will not hold up in professional color grading. Too many artifacts...

 

[ydgmdlu]

Yeah, and what about the fact that there is a "new scarlet" to begin with? Coincidence too?

Of course it's not a coincidence. Anybody can plainly see that RED is responding to the release of the D90 and the announcement of the 5D MkII. RED has never denied this. However, the notion that RED is desperately waiting to rip open a 5D to reverse engineer the chip to help improve Mysterium's designs is a ludicrous and unsupportable claim, which I tried to debunk in the post that you quoted from me. Frankly, I don't know why anybody would make such a claim, other than to trash RED through FUD tactics.

To me, the decision to make a new Scarlet/Epic announcement in early November is both a strategic and logistical move. RED threw its original designs for these two cameras out the window in the second half of the month, and it needs a few weeks' time to redesign and lock new designs. The engineers need to evaluate what they can actually put into the new versions from a technical and economic standpoint. Of course, they could just publish what they would like to do now, but that would only hurt them if a few weeks later, they realize that they can't fulfill their promises.

On top of that, announcing shortly before the shipping date of the 5D would be quite a coup, stealing Canon's thunder and encouraging many potential 5D buyers to hold off for the Scarlet.

But what do any of us really know? Even the above is all speculation. But how is the idea that RED is desperately waiting to reverse engineer the 5D's new chip any more sensical?

 

[ydgmdlu]

You're incorrect. Their isn't another sensor that is quite as good as the 5D MKII. It's ground breaking and changes the game even in still photography when it comes to low light ability. even the 1Ds doesn't compare. I'm sure the the 1Ds MK IV will be coming shortly. Probably 40mp with HD video and XLR audio inputs on the side ;-).

I'm not concerned about Epic. I'm not spending that kind of money.

OK, fair enough. But again, I was criticizing your baseless claim that RED wants to reverse engineer the 5D MkII to make Scarlet more competitive. If it was all about Scarlet, why bother redesigning Epic? If it was all about the chip, why not just keep Epic's design exactly the same except promise a chip upgrade?

There's no doubt that RED fears a loss of some potential Scarlet customers (and its reputation as a revolutionary) in light of the new video-recording DSLRs. But RED's overall business appeals to an overall wholly different customer base than what Canon and Nikon are aiming to capture. The recent public scrutiny of the 5D and the D90's capabilities and limitations prove that these cameras aren't meant to be taken seriously by video professionals. Why should RED feel as threatened as you seem to imply that it is?

So why are you taking pot shots and engaging in negative idle speculation about RED?

 

[ydgmdlu]

All of that will be mute for many if it doesn't meet or at least come close to the low light capability of the 5D MKII. It's performance is stunning.

Before I read your earlier post, I was wondering about why you were obsessed with certain aspects of a camera's capabilities while totally ignoring or glossing over others. I was even going to accuse you of not being a serious videographer, but you've saved me the trouble. Yet, I still can't help but point out how funny your obsession with low light capability is, as if it were the only thing that really mattered when comparing camera performance.

Since you're a still photographer who surely knows your way around a lot of equipment and technology, I'm certain that you know that making decisions about what to use involves a complex balancing act of compromises. Every piece of equipment has its limitations, and you have to decide what's worth sacrificing for the sake of something else. For videographers, low light capability (and other performance characteristics of the sensor) is an important concern, but it's not a be-all, end-all, deal-breaking concern. There are so many other things affecting the performance and usability of a camcorder that to focus so myopically on that one thing is to be profoundly out-of-touch with what the craft of videography involves. It's like refusing to shoot with any camcorder that doesn't use P2 cards or some other form of solid-state media.

What's become quite clear to me is that you're going to buy a 5D MkII no matter what, since it'll serve you well in your profession as a still photographer. The video-recording feature will be, just as Canon and Nikon envisioned, a nice bonus feature for you that will help you get into the world of HD videography. But you're not a serious videographer yet, so why are you debating serious videography concerns with the rest of us? We know that the 5D's video mode is good enough for you, but why are you rationalizing away all of its limitations for the rest of us? And again, why are you engaging in such negative speculation about RED and its practices? How does that contribute constructively to the discussion, rather than act merely as a FUD tactic to serve your own bias for the 5D?

By the way, I'm saying all of this as someone who is seriously considering buying either one of the new DSLRs as a replacement for his Canon XH-A1 and Letus35 adapter.

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

All of that will be mute for many if it doesn't meet or at least come close to the low light capability of the 5D MKII. It's performance is stunning.

moot

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Red Rocks.

Canon Could Rock.

Nikon Should Rock.

 

[f64manray]

Before I read your earlier post, I was wondering about why you were obsessed with certain aspects of a camera's capabilities while totally ignoring or glossing over others. I was even going to accuse you of not being a serious videographer, but you've saved me the trouble. Yet, I still can't help but point out how funny your obsession with low light capability is, as if it were the only thing that really mattered when comparing camera performance.

Since you're a still photographer who surely knows your way around a lot of equipment and technology, I'm certain that you know that making decisions about what to use involves a complex balancing act of compromises. Every piece of equipment has its limitations, and you have to decide what's worth sacrificing for the sake of something else. For videographers, low light capability (and other performance characteristics of the sensor) is an important concern, but it's not a be-all, end-all, deal-breaking concern. There are so many other things affecting the performance and usability of a camcorder that to focus so myopically on that one thing is to be profoundly out-of-touch with what the craft of videography involves. It's like refusing to shoot with any camcorder that doesn't use P2 cards or some other form of solid-state media.

What's become quite clear to me is that you're going to buy a 5D MkII no matter what, since it'll serve you well in your profession as a still photographer. The video-recording feature will be, just as Canon and Nikon envisioned, a nice bonus feature for you that will help you get into the world of HD videography. But you're not a serious videographer yet, so why are you debating serious videography concerns with the rest of us? We know that the 5D's video mode is good enough for you, but why are you rationalizing away all of its limitations for the rest of us? And again, why are you engaging in such negative speculation about RED and its practices? How does that contribute constructively to the discussion, rather than act merely as a FUD tactic to serve your own bias for the 5D?

By the way, I'm saying all of this as someone who is seriously considering buying either one of the new DSLRs as a replacement for his Canon XH-A1 and Letus35 adapter.

Let's be clear here. I'm buying a 5D MKII. I will also more than likely buy a Scarlet in addition if they come through. I know some here are emotionally attached to Red as a company (understatement, maybe even more cult like in their attachment ;-) ). To me they are either going to produce a product I can use or not. I could care less if they succeed or not. I know they are very interested in receiving all the business they can get. That makes me qualified to discuss my needs and wants on this forum.

Experienced videographer. Really? Do I need to be an experienced videographer. The first thing Laforet had ever done is what you see in Reverie and I'm thinking it's better than what most so called videograhers have ever produced after many productions. There will be more photographers entering this world of motion with the introduction of this camera. Being in photography and audio as well, I'm aware that there are more people caught up in gear than they are in the creative process. They go on endlessly about all kinds of minutia. They are more gear heads than artists. That's fine. Whatever floats their boat. it's obvious that the 5D will get the job done. You may have to trick it into the right behavior, but it will perform. could the 5D be better? Yes. Does it meet the minimum standard for some production purposes. Yes.

Does its lowlight capability simplify the shooting process? Hell yes.

Now answer a question for me. Does Red have the capability to design a full frame sensor that is sensitive to 6400 ISO? What's the best ISO rating that Red is achieving?

Low light is not the only thing I'm obssessed with. You can throw in contrast, saturation, color rendition. These are all factors that make up the emotional response to the images this camera can produce.

As a videographer, I would think this would be of paramont importance to you. The available light shooting implications are astounding with just a little added lighting here and there. Really, the 5D will be a pleasure. I can see why Laforet is having the professional epiphany of his life over it.

I hope Red can do it. I have enough money for both or even a Red One if I completely lose my sanity.

Comparing lowlight shooting capability with the obsession of P2 cards. You're uninformed even to make that kind of analogy.

 

[f64manray]

...but the video compression of the 5D will not hold up in professional color grading. Too many artifacts...

You won't have to color grade with the MKII ;-).

 

[Thebes]

...
but from my reading I think that Red One only has a ISO/ASA rating of about 500. And that's great as it was Red's intention to make a digital film camera that competes on the same playing field as a professional cinema film camera. They accomplished their objective admirably; however, even film cameras require a serious lighting set up and crew to produce great results. This is of course because of the low ISO rating.

A higher ISO rating like 6400 ASA (5D MKII) changes the game completely as far as what's required on set. It makes everything alot less labor intensive making professional results much more obtainable with less effort. Of course to get those professional results, you will need to insert a professional with a vision somewhere in that equation ie; me ;-). When you can get great results with nothing but studio strobe modeling lights and soft boxes, it's a new game. I don't believe even Red One can do that. 500 ISO just isn't enough.
...

I can get away with fairly minimal lighting for my D90 too, but there is simply no way the 5D MKII is going to do clean looking video at 6400 ISO. I can't tell what exact ISO it happens at my my D90 starts showing noticeable noise in low light, and it can get really nasty in very low light. I would not be at all surprised if the RED One can be "pushed" to do 2K with less noise than the D90 or the 5DMKII... at least for a couple of stops. If you think about it, 4K is 4x as much info as 2K, which is still more than 5DMKII, it stands to reason that choosing the appropriate downscaling method ought to add enough information to form a good basis for raising ISO in post.

I can't say with the 5DMKII, but I don't think any of the modeling lights I've had on strobes would be enough to light more than a head and shoulders shot using my D90... I'd get too much noise... maybe at like F1.4, but I rarely find myself shooting that open.

Also, I believe you mentioned shutter... shutter matters in cinema much more than it does for still photos as it contributes an effect. For practical matters a 180degree shutter often provides the best looking motion, that is 1/48th at 24fps. If you get less than a 90 degree shutter (1/96 fior 24fps) you start getting fast motion rendering that has a unique and almost effect like look. My choice for an aperture priority type mode would be to set the iris and shutter and have the camera set and tell me the ISO... I wouldn't want to set ISO and iris with it determining and varying shutter speed.