5d or GH1 for upcoming feature film.

R

Revsta

Well-known member
So here's my situation. I'm shooting a feature here very soon. I already have a GH1 and I love it, but the MUD is a big issue as I have a lot of outdoor scenes and the leaves have sprouted again and blah blah blah. The rest of the film takes place in a 2nd floor apartment so lighting through the windows is sort of not going to happen, so I will be working on a small lighting kit from inside.

The script is actually fantastic, I know everyone says that, but it really is, and the goal is the typical goal for this sorta thing--festivals/distribution/small theatrical.

I like the GH1, but I also have been looking into the 5d, especially with the magic lantern firmware and the 24p updates having come out. The sensor size is very attractive for certain things, and a lot of the footage seems great.

I already have the GH1, so I'll probably just hang on to it, but I've read you can't change your shutter speed on the 5d in video mode? Is this true or just a rumor? I can't find a whole lot of concise information on shooting video with the 5D. Anyone have advice in this regard?
 
everything on the 5DII has manual controls in movie mode including shutter speed, F-stop, ISO and audio levels.
 
Ah, well that's pretty awesome. Are people recording into camera now or is off camera sound still the best bet?
 
Dual system audio is a must for any kind of narrative film shot with a DSLR. You can use a hand clap, slate and/or plural eyes to match up the video & audio in post - it's really very simple and you'll get much higher quality audio.

As for your conundrum over whether to shoot with the 5D or the GH1 (and owning both myself), this is my recommendation: if you've got about $4k in your budget to spend on your camera department, get the 5D II. I know the body is only 2 and some change, but you'll need support gear (loupe, FF, etc) & lenses for it. If you don't have the money to get everything you need to shoot with a 5D II package, then just stick with the GH1 and maybe pick up some additional lenses and/or support gear for that camera (or even better, get some really good audio gear and a nice light kit). Run tests with the AVCHD - see how it does regarding mud at your planned locations. Shoot at 1080 & 720. Use MJPEG for critical scenes where there is a lot of movement & detail, then convert it to 24p with twixtor.

I've shot tons of material with GH1 - indoor, outdoor, high detail, action, sports, narrative, ENG, reality, you name it - and I haven't encountered a situation where mud & codec issues couldn't be dealt with easily.

I think the 5D does have a bit nicer image than the GH1, but what camera you shoot on is really such a minor aspect of your whole production. Shoot with what is available and will give you the best performance for your budget. Remember, with the 5D you can potentially encounter problems like moire & aliasing (but I have to say again, neither of these issues have ruined a shot for me). You just have to know and understand your camera's weaknesses, and work around them.

It's not about the camera - it never is. It's always about the story and your creativity.
 
So far most of my crew is working for free, so I can see dropping the money onto the 5d, a rig, and a few lenses. Still sifting through the best bang for your buck lenses.
 
If you do go the 5D route it may be worth picking up a Nikon prime or 2 (or something else legacy that can be adapted to EOS (i.e. Contax, Rollei SL35, Pentax) so that you can get lenses that can be more easily manually focused (renting ZE primes might be a good way to go or even buy a couple). This is less an issue if you aren't going to have shots where you need to track/pull focus during the shot, but if you are, you may have a hard time doing that on EF lenses.

I sure hope you have lights or are renting them - you're way better off sticking with the GH1 if going the 5D route means you won't be able to get a good light or sound package, don't put all your money into the camera & lenses, that isn't going to be enough to deliver a good product. I'd say in order of priority it's: 1. Good Dual System Sound 2.Good Lights 3. Camera & Lenses

If you've got sound and lights covered well (really well) and then have money to go 5D and lenses, that's fine, but it's hard to argue whether the 5D or GH1 is better than the other as they both have strengths and weaknesses and one should be chosen over the other based on content/shots - moire/aliasing, when it's bad on the 5D, is really bad and is going to make your production look like amateur video if you run into it in a bad way

The GH1 doesn't have that problem in the same way - but then the 5D has better dynamic range, stronger codec, shallower
depth of field (may be a good or bad thing depending on your needs since at the same f/stop you'll get twice as much DOF on the GH1 and still have the same amount of light), bigger sensor (can get wider easier), and the 5D has better high ISOs (but if this is going to be interior shooting with lights, you really shouldn't need to go above ISO 400 on either cam and the GH1s ISO 400 is great).
 
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Revsta said:
So far most of my crew is working for free, so I can see dropping the money onto the 5d, a rig, and a few lenses. Still sifting through the best bang for your buck lenses.
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In light of this information, I change my recommendation. Don't get the 5DII. Use the GH1. Pay for talented crew, feed them well. You'll get a much better return on your investment this way.
 
cowpunk52 said:
In light of this information, I change my recommendation. Don't get the 5DII. Use the GH1. Pay for talented crew, feed them well. You'll get a much better return on your investment this way.
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As great as this advice is, it will probably be ignored.

If you HAVE to shoot with a 5D, just rent one from somewhere for 75-100/day with lenses. Spend the money in FRONT of the camera and/or on crew.

Hell, the cost of one cheap lens is enough to build like two walls of a set!
 
Kholi said:
As great as this advice is, it will probably be ignored.

If you HAVE to shoot with a 5D, just rent one from somewhere for 75-100/day with lenses. Spend the money in FRONT of the camera and/or on crew.

Hell, the cost of one cheap lens is enough to build like two walls of a set!
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Why does everyone on this forum assume they're talking to amateurs? I'm a distributed filmmaker who has worked with very talented people in the past. The situations for this production are different, and I was simply looking for a camera vs. camera discussion.
 
I think that assumption, in this case, just comes from the fact that you aren't paying your crew but you're still considering dropping significant coin on a camera when you already have one available to you. Usually (not always, just usually) that is a tell-tale indicator of an amateur film production - like using an on-camera mic.
 
cowpunk52 said:
I think that assumption, in this case, just comes from the fact that you aren't paying your crew but you're still considering dropping significant coin on a camera when you already have one available to you. Usually (not always, just usually) that is a tell-tale indicator of an amateur film production - like using an on-camera mic.
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Not using an on camera mic, and maybe I have friends who want to help me who are professionals?
 
So Rev... to answer your initial question, all of the necessary settings are adjustable in video mode. (f-stop, shutter, now even audio levels) with the new firmware, which of course includes 24 fps. You still want to go dual system with the sound, as there is really no effective way of monitoring the audio that the camera gets fed.

I don't have a GH1, nor have I ever really used one, so our experience is pretty much opposite (I do own a 5D). I'm currently planning a feature, and using the 5D is one of the very reasons I would ever attempt it. You can get away with very good looking footage using available light (in some cases) or (in most cases) substantially less light than you can with other cameras. The story I am shooting lends itself to that approach.

For me, that means less gear, less crew, less people to feed and stuff to move around, the ability to change setups really quickly, and a few less questions a day to have to answer. In my opinion, thats the value in this camera.....It IS possible to create beautiful images without a grip truck, or a mutli-tiered camera department.

I'm sure you've probably already considered this - but it might be worth getting hold of a 5D and testing it side by side against the GH1 in the sort of situations and conditions you'll shoot in... From the 5D side of the equation, I'm sure it will be worth the effort, although it is not without it's issues to be concerned with as well, (jelly, moire). Really, at this price range and production level it's best to play into the strengths of the gear as it relates to telling your story.

I'm not suggesting that you mix footage, but for instance, there are a few jib shots in my film which I will likely shoot on a HVX, because I own one, and can remotely control focus and iris; and a direct matching of footage is not important for those shots (in fact, it sort helps that those shots look and feel a little different). Maybe there's a way to utilize the strengths of both cameras?

Hope it helps... best of luck with your project.. let us know what you learn along the way.
 
Revsta said:
Why does everyone on this forum assume they're talking to amateurs? I'm a distributed filmmaker who has worked with very talented people in the past. The situations for this production are different, and I was simply looking for a camera vs. camera discussion.
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Because of this:

Revsta said:
I can't find a whole lot of concise information on shooting video with the 5D.
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You have got to be kidding me. That's like not being able to find water in the Atlantic. It's that sentence that made me think you were an amateur, you can't blame other people for thinking the same.
 
Revsta said:
Why does everyone on this forum assume they're talking to amateurs? I'm a distributed filmmaker who has worked with very talented people in the past. The situations for this production are different, and I was simply looking for a camera vs. camera discussion.
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You would probably get better respect or recognition of your status if you actually signed your post with your name and credentials.

I so wish DVXuser would force people to use real names and info......


As for cameras; both are astonishing. I suggest you test both if you can. However Khoil's advice I agree with as well.


Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
http://www.PappasArts.com
http://SumeriusChronicles.com/
http://TheOrbisTerrarum.com/
 
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PappasArts said:
You would probably get better respect or recognition of your status if you actually signed your post with your name and credentials.

I so wish DVXuser would force people to use real names and info......


As for cameras; both are astonishing. I suggest you test both if you can. However Khoil's advice I agree with as well.


Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
http://www.PappasArts.com
http://SumeriusChronicles.com/
http://TheOrbisTerrarum.com/
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Pappas art just for the record none of your links even work they just re-direct you to go-daddy adds, only one of them "pbase.com/arrfilms" does and it doesn't give any of your credentials just a bunch of info and pictures so.....
 
cowpunk52 said:
I think that assumption, in this case, just comes from the fact that you aren't paying your crew but you're still considering dropping significant coin on a camera when you already have one available to you. Usually (not always, just usually) that is a tell-tale indicator of an amateur film production - like using an on-camera mic.
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... Yes.

ecking said:
Because of this:



You have got to be kidding me. That's like not being able to find water in the Atlantic. It's that sentence that made me think you were an amateur, you can't blame other people for thinking the same.
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And yes...
 
Do you have enough money to get both? You can share Nikon lenses between them. I am in post on a feature film where we shot on both...they never intercut but they cut with scenes right on top of one another...looks fine! I've done some other shoots with both and they intercut quite well (GH1 stuff in embedded film was 720p, 5D and HVX were 1080. I did GH1 720 because I had the intention of over-cranking a few more things then I ended up doing. Footage was edited in 720p timeline.)



Anyway, I like the image the 5D puts out but it has a hard time getting deep DOF in low-light conditions...you have to hit f/11 on that thing before you can get a sharp image to anywhere close to infinity (or 10 feet for that matter!) with a wide-angle...kind of ridiculous. Also the moiré is a pretty difficult issue to deal with...we had the time to remove it in post for the shots we had that exhibited it, but it involved a fair amount of rotoscoping that could have been avoided had we used the GH1 for those particular shots.

The Gh1 is also much easier to deal with and shot with because of the articulating LCD, viewfinder, no overheating, etc. When we shot on the 5D we were getting two setups at a time with a stripped down lighter rig and a heavier rig with a monitor, etc.

The softness of the camera really bothers me. I lit the scene for f/5.6 but it was still a challenge to deal with how soft the 5D was with anything outside of the ultra-wide range at those apertures.

I prefer the GH1 but I really do think they're both worth shooting on, and if you can do both, do both. The 5D will give you an edge when you need that full frame FOV, really shallow DOF, or damn the softness low-light performance. The Gh1 will perform better for shots needing medium or deeper DOF, wide angle shots where you're not cramped, and times when you need a camera that is easy to shoot on and deal with.
 
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