5D Moire Work-around

I believe Barry's never owned a 5D. But he does have the 7D. It is a difficult choice Rockmore. I struggled with the decision for a while, but it wasn't about image quality for me. The 5D is the obvious choice in that regard. It was just that the GH1 was so small and so nice to use. The rotating screen is an underestimated advantage and it's kit lens with a range like it has stabilisation is almost impossible to replicate on the 5D for under $1000.

So it depends on you! Don't worry about moire too much. My fix is easy to do and moire doesn't attack to the extent that it ruins the image as much as mud will on the GH1, and overall image compression levels from the codec. Also remember the GH1 has an awkward pulldown method to get 24p out of it's 60i stream.

Whichever choice you make, I am sure you will enjoy it and make wonderful movies!! And when you feel it's time to try a new camera, the 2nd hand value of these cameras right now is maintaining a steady close-to-new level especially when stock shortages rear their heads.
 
ROCKMORE said:
There is really a split decision on these cameras. Both are great and both have a potential problem that can be worked around.
As we've seen in the opening frame of this post, the occasional nasty 5D moire attack can easily be cured with spike's quick emergency fix, at the loss of resolution that nobody will be able to see unless freeze framed and closely scrutinized.

Commanderspike has both cameras and strongly recommends 5D over GH1, what's your pick Barry? (Even if your decision is the lesser of two evils)

There is still a third camera soon to be released that may get me something to play around with while waiting for these problems to be sorted out. That would be the 1500D (If it really exists) 1080p, 30fps, I can test all my other lenses, dirt cheap, and still able apply the emergency spike moire fix if needed.
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Problem is you can't see the moire while you are shooting, only once you get the footage on a computer. So it's not much use as a fix. Maybe you can see it on a monitor while shooting, but the HDMI is not at full res? I dunno, while shooting a test chart I can see slight moire on the LCD, then on playback it's massively worse... so a lot of the time you won't see the moire while you are shooting using the LCD.

Is there any difference between using this solution and applying a fast blur followed by sharpening in post? Maybe it's better because you have removed the moire before the footage is recorded, but you're reducing your already limited res when you might not even have moire in the shot. Strikes me it's throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
 
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ROCKMORE said:
Commanderspike has both cameras and strongly recommends 5D over GH1, what's your pick Barry? (Even if your decision is the lesser of two evils)
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I have a 7D and a GH1. And I wouldn't recommend either one to someone as a primary camera, or for use on paid shoots.

The 7D's codec is more robust, that's for sure. But its color contamination on straight lines and moire patterns is something I find straight-up bothersome; anything that has a hard defined edge and is in sharp focus has the potential to become orange/purple-fringed and wiggly/squirrely if the camera moves.

The GH1 doesn't do that, to its credit (the orange/purple part). But, to its detriment, anything that's in sharp focus has the potential to become mushy/blurry. It doesn't always happen, but it happens.

For sheer usability the GH1 wins handily. For advanced options like custom scene files, the 7D has the advantage. With Magic Lantern, the 7D would be the clear choice. But, look at the price difference: if you were able to buy both of them body-only, the GH1 would be half the price. But the 7D gives you some things for that extra dollar, such as the ability to use a monitor while shooting(!)

It'll undoubtedly infuriate some folks, but you asked so I have to answer: I wouldn't recommend any of these for professional production. They just aren't ready. You can't even monitor audio! The 7D with magic lantern would be closer, but -- as they stand now, I say they're fun toys that you can really do some amazing stuff with, but they've got plenty of drawbacks too. If you want a still camera, and you also want some shallow DOF video that (under the right circumstances) can look jaw-dropping amazing, then sure, pick up either one, whichever appeals to you more. If you want primarily a camera to shoot video on, my vote is that these point promisingly towards the future, but they're not fully baked, they're only about half-baked. Leave 'em in the oven a while longer and check in on the next generation.
 
[ I wouldn't advise anyone to use a nonprofessional product in a professional environment, although people do every day and many folks don't have a problem with it at all.[/quote]

The non-pro/pro camera argument is bogus. 'Hoop Dreams" successful film, shot with a non-pro HI8,. "Blu Blockers" Hi8, a multi-million dollar successful infomercial.

I could go on and on. I myself have strapped a non-pro Digital 8 on helicopter struts on very large budget shows.

Some of my old pro 2/4 Umatic systems actually had a worse pic than my new non-pro video cameras.

Forget the format, just use your camera in the best way you can. And, you're never too old to learn (I'm 55). I just learned a new video trick while I was tech directing the live stream at the M. Jackson premiere show last night.
 
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mhood said:
What's a 2/3 Umatic system? And what is the new video trick you picked up?
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Whoops, still not awake. Meant 3/4 " Sony Umatic. That was a workhouse for corporate, industrial, TV and other shows from the late 70s, 80s and early 90's. Instead of renting a portable 1 inch VTR, that was expensive, you had a reasonable priced over-the -shoulder VTR with a cable-connected camera. Sony had two versions, the BVU Pro series, and the VO industrial series. They both recorded pretty much the same signal. But the pro series had T.C. and a few other features that you had to pay for. Of course, we later bought BetaSP, and that format has lasted a long time. I even shot a BetaCam soundbite for a Guthy-Renker infomercial abouit six months ago. The original footage was in Beta. Probably will be the last time I shoot in Beta, but you never know.

The new video trick I learned last night was a setting on a Panasonic AG-HD1400. I couldn't get stable SD video, per EE mode, out of the firewire, when inputting HD. The manual is long and confusing. About 800 different software settings. Finally after changing the 020 setting from 720P to 1080i, the firewire output was perfect. It was strange, because when I played back a 720P tape, it worked fine, but when the switchers were fed through the deck with the 720P setting, the firewire signal was bad. I changed all 5 decks, and we were ready to roll with 1 hour to spare. whewww.

By the way, I bought a 5D and a steadicam last week, and plan to use it on a job next week. I'll also be using my HPX500. For the interiors (I'm shooting an A340 airplane), I'll use the 5D for MOS. I've been testing the 5D, and even though it's not perfect, it has the best dynamic range and size for the close quarters that I will be shooting in.

JohnnyD
 
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I thought you were talking about 3/4. I have two BVU800s and a BVU110 in a Kangaroo Case gathering dust in a barn. I wish I had the cash those decks cost me...it would go a lot farther now than it did back in the mid '80s.

Neat trick I guess...I know nothing about Panasonic AG-HD1400s. But I'm a master of the 3/4. ;-)
 
Barry_Green said:
I have a 7D and a GH1. And I wouldn't recommend either one to someone as a primary camera, or for use on paid shoots.
It'll undoubtedly infuriate some folks, but you asked so I have to answer: I wouldn't recommend any of these for professional production. They just aren't ready.


Thanks Barry you can't say this enough, even in your sleep. It's the warning in the back of everyone's head that should always be there. This will keep you alive another day.
The film business is a first and foremost "business." In business everybody has something to win, or loose.
We creative people may not always like the business side, but at the end of the day, it does allows us to buy nice toys like the 5D, 7D, GH1 and maybe even a Ducati Monster if we're that lucky. Use these cameras like icing on the cake, but let your client know the downside and "always" advise them to rent the really killer gear to bring it on home for their own good and yours. Everybody goes home happy, everybody gets paid.
And remember, the word 'Paid" is the most important word in business.
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You got it Rockmore. It's probably best to sacrifice the razor thin DOF and 'wow' image quality of a DSLR to avoid moire, because shooting on a tried and trusted camera designed from the ground up for video is less risky.

You don't wanna risk it with paid work.

What Barry suggests is correct for paid work. But for those who do this kind of thing for a hobby or whom are building up a portfolio of work to take around film companies and ad firms, then the HD-SLR is manna from heaven.

I just shot a fashion ad on my 5D and used the GH1 for slow-mo. Worked really nicely!! Can't wait to show the results on here.
 
commanderspike said:
It's probably best to sacrifice the razor thin DOF and 'wow' image quality of a DSLR to avoid moire, because shooting on a tried and trusted camera designed from the ground up for video is less risky.


I was referring to renting a Red One which is a pretty good option theses days even on a low budget project. You can even save by using your Canon glass. They don't disappoint.

If there isn't a budget available for camera, support, audio, lighting, crew, talent, hair & makeup, location fees, transportation, post production etc., or any one of the items I listed, then it may not actually be considered a paying job, and you have nothing to worry about.

I'm not criticizing these cameras for what they can do, I'm cautioning about making promises to your paying client that your camera may not be able to keep.

They never blame the camera, just the guy who ordered it.

This thread started out with a shot that you showed us, illustrating how much trouble the 5D can get you in. You were able to deal with it and I'm impressed with your solution. Very good move.

On the other hand, what if someone else who got sold on using the 5D for a professional job say in a furniture store with lots of chairs like the one you shot. Unlike you, they didn't catch the error at the shoot, and the first thing the paying client saw in post was the shot of his chairs covered with moire patterns. They would most likely freak out. I've seen it happen more that once in my life. You never want to be caught in that situation paying client or not.
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spike was banned,you wont get your answer(it could show that info near avatar how its on other forums)
 
I liked his real world smart ass comments, even slammed me a few times, but didn't hurt a bit. After all isn't that the hard reality of friendly debate? Can we get him back?
 
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