5D MkIII-dual sync sound still needed?
- Thread starter eco_bach
- Start date
greenheron
Well-known member
The recording quality has not been greatly improved just the control and reference.
Think of it like this:
1. If audio is worth doing, except for just ambiance, it is worth doing right.
2. Backup has become second nature for professional work and the MKIII is a nice backup solution because:
3. You need sync for your primary sound recorder anyway.
Now, if you are by yourself and you just need to grab a quick bit of audio I would have no problem grabbing it with the Canon, BUT....
If you are doing primary audio, interview, narrative, etc. I would definitely go with an external recorder. The best you can afford. Rental or otherwise.
Think of it like this:
1. If audio is worth doing, except for just ambiance, it is worth doing right.
2. Backup has become second nature for professional work and the MKIII is a nice backup solution because:
3. You need sync for your primary sound recorder anyway.
Now, if you are by yourself and you just need to grab a quick bit of audio I would have no problem grabbing it with the Canon, BUT....
If you are doing primary audio, interview, narrative, etc. I would definitely go with an external recorder. The best you can afford. Rental or otherwise.
gonzo_entertainment
Veteran
If you care about quality sound, then yes.
I have to say that I disagree.
I used to use a Zoom to record audio along with Canon 60D and sync in post using the internal mic recording on the camera as a reference to aide synching.
Using the Mark 3, I have been recording sound directly into the camera with excellent results. Mostly, using a Senn ME66 and a XLR to 1/8" adapter cable directly to camera.
If you need to mix mics, you can't do that in camera and you'll need to go the old route... but if you are recording only one mic, or even 2 wireless lavs and can live with the levels being the same, the audio is very good.
There is some slight hiss present in the final recording, but that can be completely eliminated with any noise reduction plugin at the default settings without compromising the part of the recording you want to keep.
If there will be music present in the final mix, you may not even need to deal with that at all.
Feel free to attack, but try it out and you might be surprised! I was!
Now, my shooting setup is much less complex and I can move much faster without having to deal with the external audio issue.
I recommend a XLR to stereo 1/8" adapter cable to record the audio onto both channels. Also, make sure the 1/8" plug is a 90 degree angle to keep from stressing out the connector, and lastly, I use one that's about 5' long so it doesn't dangle from the camera and rests on the ground.
I just shot a project that consisted of 12 interviews in 3 cities over 6 days. I didn't edit the project, so I just copied the footage to a hard drive and sent to my client.
I took my Zoom with me for insurance, but never had to use it... and my client is happy.
If there are non-belivers out there, I'll be happy to post an audio file for you to throw rocks at...
I used to use a Zoom to record audio along with Canon 60D and sync in post using the internal mic recording on the camera as a reference to aide synching.
Using the Mark 3, I have been recording sound directly into the camera with excellent results. Mostly, using a Senn ME66 and a XLR to 1/8" adapter cable directly to camera.
If you need to mix mics, you can't do that in camera and you'll need to go the old route... but if you are recording only one mic, or even 2 wireless lavs and can live with the levels being the same, the audio is very good.
There is some slight hiss present in the final recording, but that can be completely eliminated with any noise reduction plugin at the default settings without compromising the part of the recording you want to keep.
If there will be music present in the final mix, you may not even need to deal with that at all.
Feel free to attack, but try it out and you might be surprised! I was!
Now, my shooting setup is much less complex and I can move much faster without having to deal with the external audio issue.
I recommend a XLR to stereo 1/8" adapter cable to record the audio onto both channels. Also, make sure the 1/8" plug is a 90 degree angle to keep from stressing out the connector, and lastly, I use one that's about 5' long so it doesn't dangle from the camera and rests on the ground.
I just shot a project that consisted of 12 interviews in 3 cities over 6 days. I didn't edit the project, so I just copied the footage to a hard drive and sent to my client.
I took my Zoom with me for insurance, but never had to use it... and my client is happy.
If there are non-belivers out there, I'll be happy to post an audio file for you to throw rocks at...
gonzo_entertainment
Veteran
Forgetting the hassle of audio and video being tethered together (which some DPs will REALLY hate). That "hiss" is the very high noise floor. It will bit you in the a** the first time you have to try to bring dialogue levels that were recorded a bit too low up. It many be fine for some stuff, but for narrative film making, it's just a really bad idea.
True.
Not meaning to imply that this setup would be ideal for all situations by any stretch, but if you are shooting a controlled sit-down interview (which I shoot plenty of), this works great. I'll always have my external recorder with me as a security blanket most likely, but it's working out pretty nicely for me so far.
I think most people who would even consider wanting to record straight into the camera are going to be one-man-band shooters who have the most to benefit from the increased speed of a less complex shoot and faster edit. I wouldn't expect it to be a consideration for a project that has a sound crew and normal post workflow. Those types of shoots would have layers of redundancy. Most sound guys I work with will record to multiple devices for safety.
But I stand by the quality I've gotten thus far...
Not meaning to imply that this setup would be ideal for all situations by any stretch, but if you are shooting a controlled sit-down interview (which I shoot plenty of), this works great. I'll always have my external recorder with me as a security blanket most likely, but it's working out pretty nicely for me so far.
I think most people who would even consider wanting to record straight into the camera are going to be one-man-band shooters who have the most to benefit from the increased speed of a less complex shoot and faster edit. I wouldn't expect it to be a consideration for a project that has a sound crew and normal post workflow. Those types of shoots would have layers of redundancy. Most sound guys I work with will record to multiple devices for safety.
But I stand by the quality I've gotten thus far...
If you use a clean preamp to allow recording in camera with a mic level of +1 above 0 while hitting -12dB, you'll get a very low noise floor: effectively no hiss. I've done this with the Sennheiser G3 receiver and with the Sound Devices USBPre2 (standalone mode): excellent results. Example with somewhat noisy dynamic mics: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bWGogt2Kxg
gonzo_entertainment
Veteran
Pre-amp helps with the quality issue, but still doesn't help with camera and audio tethered together. One man or two man run and gun, ok. For narrative film making in a more traditional sense, Still a HUGE drawback.
This depends on the camera. I owned a Canon 60D for a few months before switching everything over to the Panasonic GH2.
The Canon 60D has a noise-floor of -52 dB, which is too noisy for me, as there is NO room for any audio recording errors.
The Panasonic GH2 has a noise-floor of -63 dB ( same as my HMC-150 ENG camera ), which is better, but it also does not leave much room for any audio recording errors.
The Tascam DR-100 MK2 recorder in LINE or MIC ( Low and Med pre-amp setting, High is too noisy ) level has a noise-floor of -83 dB, which gives you lots of room for audio corrections.
...I do record audio directly to the GH2 when I want a quick'n'dirty set-up, but otherwise I always record to an external digital recorder. ( Tascam DR-100 MK2, Olympus LS-11, Sony PCM-M10 )
I can't get your YouTube link to work through the office firewall ( most YouTube videos are fine, but for some reason yours won't play )
Is there any chance you can sort out your Vimeo link. When I click your Vimeo link I see the message that the video is private and thus I can't view or download it.
Is there any chance you can sort out your Vimeo link. When I click your Vimeo link I see the message that the video is private and thus I can't view or download it.
The last change was to "Unlisted". It's now public: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bWGogt2Kxg
Vimeo version now public, with download option: https://vimeo.com/39445020
Vimeo version now public, with download option: https://vimeo.com/39445020
I care about sound quality. And, I'd prefer the dual system for recording audio and video separately... but you don't always have the time or man power.
I have a 5d3 and I use a juicedlink rm333 which I think gives me great sound directly into the camera. It has 3 xlr inputs - 2 channels mixed to the right and the left stays independent.
I had previously purchased a bunch of wireless lavs, so I just strapped the receivers to the juicedlink on my rig and BAM! Great audio with an easy solution and it is 100% wireless.
Now all I have to do is wear headphones when I shoot!
I have a 5d3 and I use a juicedlink rm333 which I think gives me great sound directly into the camera. It has 3 xlr inputs - 2 channels mixed to the right and the left stays independent.
I had previously purchased a bunch of wireless lavs, so I just strapped the receivers to the juicedlink on my rig and BAM! Great audio with an easy solution and it is 100% wireless.
Now all I have to do is wear headphones when I shoot!
JuicedLink is more practical for a mobile camera setup. SoundDevices USBPre2 also works as an ultra-high quality computer audio interface (can also run off USB battery for remote work on a tripod for). SD USBPre2 can pass digital output into digital in of low-cost recorders (such as the DR100MkII). It's so clean going into camera when the camera gain is +1 above 0 I don't bother with separate audio (though 24bit 96kHz may come in handy in the future when using separate audio).
Mics used: MXLR144 ribbon and Shure SM7B dynamic. Both mics require a lot of gain (50-60+dB)- without a clean preamp, they are noisy.
From my tests, the SD USBPre2 into camera with gain of +1 is cleaner than same mics into DR100MkII stored digitally at 2496 (DR100mkII purchased as a digital bit bucket: preamps are better than H4N, etc., but still not very good compared to SD level gear).
The new JL devices have a 'bracketed' audio solution to prevent clipping, however the SD limiter is amazing and transparent. For this reason I'd pick a MicPre-D over JL gear: http://www.sounddevices.com/products/mixpred/key_features/
For 3 channels: http://www.sounddevices.com/products/302/
If JL had a decent limiter, would recommend over SD if cost an issue (additionally- I like to do Mid-Side (M+S) recording with the AT BP4029 shotgun and need both channels: not possible with JL if using their 'bracketed' output).
An older test with 5DMark II: AT BP4029 into SD USBPre2 => digital out to DR100mkII => analog line level out into Studio 1 XLR Pro => into 5DMark II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulWOV0WujuQ
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Listening to the 60 MB Vimeo download version, the audio sounds muffled, like the upper range is missing. I have no idea if this is the mics or the Canon recording.
Also in the background there is a definite "fan" or AC unit hum that is not helping at all.
...As a side note, the 5D MK3 image looks great. Very nice indeed.
Also in the background there is a definite "fan" or AC unit hum that is not helping at all.
...As a side note, the 5D MK3 image looks great. Very nice indeed.
The Canon's 48kHz signal is not low-pass filtered in-camera. Both mics are 'smooth' by their design (especially the ribbon) and not bright as condenser mics. 99.99% of listener's can't hear the hum- no reason to spend time removing it.
This condenser mic version is brighter (and I cut high frequencies in post): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulWOV0WujuQ
Jon Fairhurst posted demos on Cinema5D a few years ago showing that the Mark II with a good preamp sounded better than any of the sub $500 (and perhaps sub $1000) external recorders: http://cinema5d.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=3727
See this chart to see the noise levels of many common external recorders: http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm
The USBPre2 has the same hardware topology as the 722 (top of the chart). I also have the DR100mkII- its AD converters are very noisy compared to the SD ADs.
In terms of noise performance and cost, the Fostex FR-2LE is the best deal.
Yes, for typical bad laptop or desktop speakers I would agree with this, but as a standard practice I try and produce the best audio I can every time I shoot.
Personally, I think Jon wasn't using an optimal set-up. I doubt that the 5D MK2 or 5D MK3 has a lower noise-floor than a Tascam DR-100 MK2, which I know from testing has a RMS noise-floor of -83 dB, which is the best I've tested for recorders under $500. The newer 5D MK3 might be as good as my GH2 which has a RMS noise-floor of -63 dB, but I have yet to test it to see what the actual RMS noise-floor is.
I am not a fan of the Avisoft noise-floor testing, as their numbers don't correspond well with RMS noise-floor levels, and I have found big discrepancies between their numbers and what I am getting with the same recorders. Under certain conditions you can actually hear the high noise-floor hiss ( when it's in the -50 to -59 dB range ), which was one reason why I ditched my Canon 60D. ( I could hear the high noise-floor when I shot with it )
I am in the process of publishing an 8 recorder comparison for my first blog post, but work keeps getting in the way. The technical tests are finished, but I haven't had time to arrange a live musical recording test to see how good the built-in mics are.
Yes, Sound Devices gear is definitely among the best out there. I've been using a MixPre field mixer for the past 4 years, and recently upgraded to a MixPre-D which is a nice step up from the old unit.
In my own tests, the DR-100 MK2 shows a RMS noise floor of -83 dB for LINE level and MIC level as long as you stay away from the HIGH pre-amp MIC setting. ( this setting kind of ruins the audio capability of this recorder )
I know that the Sound Devices recorders are better than -100 dB for RMS noise floor levels, but for practical purposes most people won't notice any noise once you've crossed the -70 dB threshold in your finished audio tracks.
I haven't had chance to actually test this unit. I've heard that it's pretty good, but I have no idea how it actually stacks up. Some manufacturers fib a bit in their specs, so I trust my own real-world tests more than anything I read printed.
For example, the Sony PCM-M10 is a great recorder, as long as you stay away from the upper end of it's mic pre-amps. The M10 pre-amps are very noisy once you cross the mid-range of it's gain setting. Where the now discontinued Olympus LS-11 recorder, outperforms the Sony quite a bit, holding to a -75 dB RMS noise-floor throughout it's gain range. ( Olympus had no idea how to market this recorder, so sales weren't great and they dropped it )
The trick with the 5D2 and 5D3 is to manually set gain to +1 (lowest level), then run a high-quality preamp (SD or JL) to hit -12dB while recording. The Sennheiser G3 also works very well in this way- noise level is not an issue. If you get access to a 5D3, you might want to test with the SD MixPre-D in this way.