4x4' Diffusion Frame

D

DDirector

Veteran
Im looking at buying a 4x4' diffusion frame from B&H.

I have a few questions first:

1) Is there anything smaller than a 4x4' frame?
2) Which kind should I get (f-stop wise ~ 1/4, 1/2, 1 stop loss)
3) Where can I find it on the website? -- There seem to be different versions with the same description, but different costs.
 
Buy directly from Modern Studio Equipment or Norm's Grip and save a lot of $$$.

They both have various size frames.

The stop loss will depend on the material you skin it with
 
I use the westscott scrmjim system, uses velcro vs. Cord... Some setups use elastic corners.

Personally i use 1/2 or 1/4 the most; with flos definitely 1/4 since thy're pretty soft. I even use white gauzey stuff often, it looks direct-but-soft. A stop or more just eats too much light.

Anything smaller than 4x4, consider using the flag-type scrims.
 
Michael Carter said:
I use the westscott scrim jim system, uses velcro vs. Cord... Some setups use elastic corners.
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They have a 3.5 x 3.5' frame, interested.
But will this hold up to hot Arri lights?

And id need a special clamp to attach the frame to the C-Stands, dont I?

*Its more expensive for the Scrim Jim isnt it?
 
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Open frames are also available in 2'X3' size. I find the 4'X4' most useful. One with opal and one with half white or full white diffusion would be good. What lights do you plan to diffuse with the frames?
 
slondon said:
Open frames are also available in 2'X3' size. I find the 4'X4' most useful. One with opal and one with half white or full white diffusion would be good. What lights do you plan to diffuse with the frames?
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Mentioned in a few posts up.
I own Arris, so Arris. The highest wattage I have right now is 1K, but I dont want to be limited to ones that cant stand higher temeratures
 
Paul Hudson said:
Scrim Jim is nice, more expensive and I find them a bit fragile.
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Surprised to hear that - when mine turned about 15, I re-glued and riveted a lot of the velcro - other than that, they've held up well - the only stuff I have that old are c-stands! They are somewhat pricey; I've had sewing-grannies make me strip lights and sheers for them. Long-run value has been amazing though. Good system, packs small.

For clamping frames, Superclamps work well; lately I've been using Manfrotto 175's, they work especially well with square-tube frames - and they're great for cards/etc.

Regarding heat - I once bought a few yards of hot air balloon fabric, but the stuff yellowed over time (uniformly, not from heat) and it ate about 2 stops.

You can't stick a hot light too close to most diffusion I'm afraid; but I've been OK 18" out or so.
 
DDirector said:
Mentioned in a few posts up.
I own Arris, so Arris. The highest wattage I have right now is 1K, but I dont want to be limited to ones that cant stand higher temeratures
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Ah, sorry, I missed it. You won't have any trouble with 1Ks and a 4X4 frame, remember, you almost always want to back the light off enough so that on full flood you can fill the entire frame with the projected light beam. That's several feet. The point, of course, of diffusion on a frame is to have as soft a source as you can, meaning as large a source relative to the subject as you can. By filling the frame with the light beam from the fixture, the frame itself becomes the large source you are looking for to create those soft shadows.

I routinely put diffusion on the barndoors of 1Ks, just a few inches form the lens of a fresnel, and on flood there is no problem with damaging the gel.
 
Main softbox benefit is so spill, esp. compared to an open frame. Downside is the expense (for a hot-capable softbox) and the small size (unless you ant to spend a fortune).

I've made huge softboxes with c-stands, conduit, and black fabric with a diffusion front. Very quick to throw together - hang duvatyne or black felt for the sides.

I've been toying with the idea of a 3x6 eggcrate/diffusion frame, something made of 1/8" plywood that could fold up. From time to time you see things like 3x3 eggcrates on ebay.
 
starcentral said:
Can we talk about 4x4 diffusion versus softbox of similar diffusion panel size for a second? Obviously either of them will more or less produce the same light (soft, on the shadow-less side) but what other differences/advantages/disadvantages are there? Softbox takes up more space yes. But how for example might you eggcrate a panel on a frame in front of a light - or would you even need too? What happens when you move the light closer or further from the frame whereas a softbox is fixed distance?

Just curious about this.
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I rarely use softboxes anymore but controlling the spill from a 4X4 frame is a chore. With a big soft source you must use large flags and move them as close as possible to the subject. So 4X4 floppies whose dimensions are about 4'X8' are de rigeur.

Eggcrate grids on softboxes are fairly effective though. Think of them as a whole lot of barndoors.

I often see people think they can completely flag a large source back at the fixture itself. That's hard or impossible to do. I can't tell you how often I see people try to control the spill from a four bank Kinoflo, for example, by using the flaps on the housing. They're too small. When they "door off" one or two tubes the others still emit light that can reach where they're trying to stop it from going. They mostly really wind up just decreasing the output from the fixture not controlling the spill.
 
Hey Paul, do you own a diffuser from Modern Studio? That price is very tempting, but I can't find a picture anywhere.

Does it come with the frame, and how is it (if you own one)?

EDIT: Slondon, what do you reccomend then to flag off large source? It seems difficult to use huge flags and still capture the scene..but I'm not sure.
 
starcentral said:
Can we talk about 4x4 diffusion versus softbox of similar diffusion panel size for a second? Obviously either of them will more or less produce the same light (soft, on the shadow-less side) but what other differences/advantages/disadvantages are there? Softbox takes up more space yes. But how for example might you eggcrate a panel on a frame in front of a light - or would you even need too? What happens when you move the light closer or further from the frame whereas a softbox is fixed distance?

Just curious about this.
Click to expand...

They won't produce the same light, as the softness of a light is directly related to the size of the source relative to the subject. The softbox is very difficult to make much softer without making it very sourcey, as to make it softer you have to walk it in, increasing the fall off. With a 4x4 frame you can walk it right up next to your subject and have it be an extremely soft light without having it be right there.

Although, I do have to admit, I wonder how the inverse square law works once going through a diffusion frame. Does it continue to fall off at the same rate as it was, or does it sort of start over, since the 4x frame becomes the source?

Anyways, I do think they have egg crates for frames. Just a little harder to find. I know they have 6x6 and 8x8 egg crates, so I can't imagine it being too crazy for them to have 4x4 ones. You can also set a series of flags though to do the same thing as an egg crate.
 
The inverse square law only applies to sources that are far enough away to appear as points for all practical purposes, in other words, where the light-to-subject distance is significantly larger than the size of the light source itself. If you work close to a large two dimensional plane of light like the surface of a diffuser, there is little noticeable falloff at all until you start getting farther away from the panel than the dimensions of the frame. Sources which approximate a one dimensional line, like bare fluorescent tubes, show linear (not distance-squared) falloff, again as long as you are closer to the light than the size of the source itself. (That's probably closer than practical for a flo, but certainly possible to achieve with a big square diffusion frame.)

- Greg
 
hatsoff2halford said:
Hey Paul, do you own a diffuser from Modern Studio? That price is very tempting, but I can't find a picture anywhere.

Does it come with the frame, and how is it (if you own one)?

EDIT: Slondon, what do you reccomend then to flag off large source? It seems difficult to use huge flags and still capture the scene..but I'm not sure.
Click to expand...

I have 4x4 cart full of Norm's 4x4's. I buy the frames from Norm's then skin them with different diffusion. Some are 216, 250, opal, Hampshire frost, etc... Do be sure and use snot tape to apply gels to frames. You can get it at Filmtools and other expendable dealers.
 
Paul Hudson said:
I have 4x4 cart full of Norm's 4x4's. I buy the frames from Norm's then skin them with different diffusion. Some are 216, 250, opal, Hampshire frost, etc... Do be sure and use snot tape to apply gels to frames. You can get it at Filmtools and other expendable dealers.
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Are we talking about the FR290, 48" square flat aluminum frame? Or a different type?

- Greg
 
Paul Hudson said:
I have 4x4 cart full of Norm's 4x4's.
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I had a Gaffer who rolled the same way, & I loved it. Saves so much time on set.

I have a pair each of Chimera's 2x2', 4x4', & 6x6' frames. In addition to Chimera's most other brand rags can be used too. Although pricey the system is surprisingly strong, while lightweight, & compact, with all six frames plus a number of rags fitting into a single golf bag flight case.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/303917-REG/Chimera_5630_48x48_High_Definition_ENG_Fabric.html

If I have a proper grip package these rarely get busted out, but for those other times they're great.
 
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