4K on EOS series
- Thread starter Eric Papa
- Start date
commanderspike
Carbonite Member
There are a few, small niggles to sort out first:
1. Their entire business model
2. Machete attacks by a cigar chomping Jim at RED
3. A 650BHP cooling fan for the processing hardware
4. Portable electronics which hasn't yet been invented
5. A CMOS sensor which hasn't yet been invented
6. Hydrogen battery pack in a consumer friendly casing
And a few other small things like cost.
Joking aside I think it's a loooooong way off yet. Mainly because of the image processing hardware and storage device. Look at the difficulties RED have had getting Scarlet to the market and the size of their other cameras which do 4k.
I think there's about another 1 or 2 years evolution in portable computing power needed before we see an EOS-like camera with 4k raw output.
1. Their entire business model
2. Machete attacks by a cigar chomping Jim at RED
3. A 650BHP cooling fan for the processing hardware
4. Portable electronics which hasn't yet been invented
5. A CMOS sensor which hasn't yet been invented
6. Hydrogen battery pack in a consumer friendly casing
And a few other small things like cost.
Joking aside I think it's a loooooong way off yet. Mainly because of the image processing hardware and storage device. Look at the difficulties RED have had getting Scarlet to the market and the size of their other cameras which do 4k.
I think there's about another 1 or 2 years evolution in portable computing power needed before we see an EOS-like camera with 4k raw output.
This I don't understand - why are people so caught up in the EOS line? Just because we have HD videos on the DSLRs today, doesn't mean it's the ideal form factor or that it makes much sense for the EOS DSLR to be the platform going future for video applications.
EOS line is NOT future of HD video.
EOS line is NOT future of HD video.
Jean Dodge
Active member
EOS may not be the future, but it's certainly been great being able to use a lot of very good, fast prime lenses that are relatively cheap! Moving forward and away from the DSLR form would be the obvious next step, essentially doing what RED is/was trying with modular parts - only with a simpler level of compression. Or, just go with the camcorder form and the DSLR sensors.
I'd like to see your basic camcorder-that-sits-on-your-shoulder with a FF sensor... but the viewfinder is the difficult part. Unless you can accurately judge critical focus that way you are just whistling in the dark. So that leads you back to the idea of a true reflex viewing system... which is the ARRI model, I suppose. Or, trying to judge critical focus on a small HD monitor, which is good but not great... and it generally moves the focus plane of the sensor farther away from your eyeball/ neck/ shoulder which means less smooth handheld operation.
I'd like to see your basic camcorder-that-sits-on-your-shoulder with a FF sensor... but the viewfinder is the difficult part. Unless you can accurately judge critical focus that way you are just whistling in the dark. So that leads you back to the idea of a true reflex viewing system... which is the ARRI model, I suppose. Or, trying to judge critical focus on a small HD monitor, which is good but not great... and it generally moves the focus plane of the sensor farther away from your eyeball/ neck/ shoulder which means less smooth handheld operation.
xmephestox
Carbonite Member
i dunno why people get so hung up over the war in resolution. it's always "but how many K can this camera put out?" i assume that everybody's eventual goal at one point or another is cinema, theatrical release. that's end game for most people right? 4k projecting? that's awhile off, especially for main stream. so a 2k filmout with really be the goal, and yes downsampling is a way of getting you the best 2k filmout look that you can provide.
but there are many other ways of doing it too. 1080p is proven to have beautiful looking filmouts, 2k isn't that much more resolution than it, and having a superior 1080p camera can give you as sharp and a clean look as if u shot 4k to begin with. key to that? downsampling on the fly efficiently. you save more hard drive space, you save more processing power, you save more of everything. genesis does this, it's a native 5.6k sensor that does on the fly downsampling to 1080p. each pixel has 6 photosites, 2 green, 2 blue, 2 red, for full raster 4:4:4 color sampling, with enough down sampled resolution to give you a fantastic 2k filmout.
probably the sweetest spot cameras should move toward to is have u ur full frame sensor that shoots however many K that deem necessary, and get it out as 2k right away, raw, and 4:4:4 if possible. there is nothing wrong with 1080p, it's just the quality of it ur getting, and that's what IMHO camera companies should be concentrating on.
but there are many other ways of doing it too. 1080p is proven to have beautiful looking filmouts, 2k isn't that much more resolution than it, and having a superior 1080p camera can give you as sharp and a clean look as if u shot 4k to begin with. key to that? downsampling on the fly efficiently. you save more hard drive space, you save more processing power, you save more of everything. genesis does this, it's a native 5.6k sensor that does on the fly downsampling to 1080p. each pixel has 6 photosites, 2 green, 2 blue, 2 red, for full raster 4:4:4 color sampling, with enough down sampled resolution to give you a fantastic 2k filmout.
probably the sweetest spot cameras should move toward to is have u ur full frame sensor that shoots however many K that deem necessary, and get it out as 2k right away, raw, and 4:4:4 if possible. there is nothing wrong with 1080p, it's just the quality of it ur getting, and that's what IMHO camera companies should be concentrating on.
Let them perfect their still camera first.....
let sony, panasonic and Red worry about the motion picture market.
let sony, panasonic and Red worry about the motion picture market.
commanderspike
Carbonite Member
I don't understand this statement. What is it implying? That a certain brand doesn't understand the motion picture market?
Sony, by the way, are way behind the curve.
I'll never understand all this arguing over brands. If Sanyo came out with a 5D beater I'd use that instead. Then, whilst comparing the two I'd criticise the 5D, now I'd seen it in a new light - the Sanyo light! :grin: Maybe that would be even harder for people to accept than it is, for instance, some GH1 users to accept the 5D's image quality advantage!!
There is something primeval in everyone about tools. We seem to take a great deal of pride in our ownership of certain tools and take negative statements about the capabilities of such tools in such a personal way. It has to stop, it really does.
Whenever there is a camera forum which caters for multiple brands, there is a certain fanaticism at play. Can it pleased be toned down and for the facts to stand up on their own without upsetting anyone?
i mean, the day they produce a non consumer Video Camera is the day i will respect canon as a professional brand.
I own a 5D. And when i shoot photos for pay, i rent a set of L series glass, and a 1D MkIII. Why? because its a pro camera, it does things the 5D cant, because the 5D is a prosumer camera. The better Autofocus, faster recycle rate, no buffer over flow, and backup redundant recording of images to SD card in camera. all CRITICAL to completing the assignment at hand.
To this day their highest end Video camera is a XLh1s. It shoots interlaced "progressive" 24F to HDV. Commander im talking about PROFESSIONAL products here. not PRosumer. Canon does not produce a "Pro" camera yet. KEY WORD: yet. I want a S35 XDcam/AVCintra/Redcode"light" camera so bad i can taste it. I feel like Sony/Panasonic/RED will be the first to deliver at a low price point and i hope they do.
The 5D is a Still camera first. I am still hard pressed to use it for ANYTHING other than web video.
Which part of what i said came across as Fanatic? I think this is a preoccupation of the writer and not my statement.
I own a 5D. And when i shoot photos for pay, i rent a set of L series glass, and a 1D MkIII. Why? because its a pro camera, it does things the 5D cant, because the 5D is a prosumer camera. The better Autofocus, faster recycle rate, no buffer over flow, and backup redundant recording of images to SD card in camera. all CRITICAL to completing the assignment at hand.
To this day their highest end Video camera is a XLh1s. It shoots interlaced "progressive" 24F to HDV. Commander im talking about PROFESSIONAL products here. not PRosumer. Canon does not produce a "Pro" camera yet. KEY WORD: yet. I want a S35 XDcam/AVCintra/Redcode"light" camera so bad i can taste it. I feel like Sony/Panasonic/RED will be the first to deliver at a low price point and i hope they do.
The 5D is a Still camera first. I am still hard pressed to use it for ANYTHING other than web video.
Which part of what i said came across as Fanatic? I think this is a preoccupation of the writer and not my statement.
What? F23 and F35 are still incredibly popular tools. What curve are they behind?Because they haven't turned their DSLRs into video shooters????
It's been that way around here for years and it's not going to change. The solution is to speak with your work, as words have no meaning since they get repeated over and over.
Timur's post = Agreed.
commanderspike
Carbonite Member
Yes, up to now they are behind the DSLR curve. Their latest releases have been disappointing. The Alpha series was pretty cutting edge a year ago, but they've simply been reheated and reconstituted with nothing particularly new. Then again I could argue that toast is made of bread with Kholi and recently he'd still find the need to disagree with me, for reasons why I have no idea about.
Timur-Civan'
I'm no Canon Fanboy. I own Panny and am pretty gear neutral as long as it gets the job done. Can you deny that professional quality work is being done with Canon video cams? Can you buy better equipment, of course. Can great work be done on a $3000 XH-A1, of course. Are you saying that the professional work done on Canon cams isn't professional, just because you don't consider the cam good enough? 24F; God forbid!
I like good gear as much as anybody, but I feel my own limitations are more important to worry about than worrying about the minutia difference in quality between a 5D and a 1D. I can assure you even the original 5D will shoot some pretty good pictures, maybe even professional. In fact, I recollect making some pretty decent images when I was using a lowly old Nikkormat FTN.
Best Regards,
Grant
I'm no Canon Fanboy. I own Panny and am pretty gear neutral as long as it gets the job done. Can you deny that professional quality work is being done with Canon video cams? Can you buy better equipment, of course. Can great work be done on a $3000 XH-A1, of course. Are you saying that the professional work done on Canon cams isn't professional, just because you don't consider the cam good enough? 24F; God forbid!
I like good gear as much as anybody, but I feel my own limitations are more important to worry about than worrying about the minutia difference in quality between a 5D and a 1D. I can assure you even the original 5D will shoot some pretty good pictures, maybe even professional. In fact, I recollect making some pretty decent images when I was using a lowly old Nikkormat FTN.
Best Regards,
Grant
androbot2084
Carbonite Member
Unfortunately the 4K format does not meet the International Telecommunications Union standards for high definition because its temporal resolution is limited to 24 frames per second. The 2K format at 48 frames per second meets ITU high definition requirements.
I use the tools i deem acceptable for the job. There are reasons i demand the best. Its not fun telling a client that you lost footage/photos because of a corrupt card.
I am avidly opposed to "work around" and make shift patches. Let me tell you why. Last year i was working on a fashion documentary shooting on EX1. The Rental camera ( a private camera from a friend, not from a rental house) had a "work around" SXS -> SDcard adapter. Everythign was going fine, and we had shot a load of beautiful footage. One day we were shooting an interview with a top end fashion critic/Magazine editor. one in a lifetime type interview that the prodcer worked for weeks to get. We get back to basecamp, and pow. SD card was corrupt. We lost 45 minutes of MISSION CRITICAL footage. The crux of the doc, was lost. The asked me why this happened, and i had no answer. The SD card had a write failure.
After that day i swore i would never use a work around again. As a responsible Director of photography, it smy business and responsibility to enure that "problems" dont happen. I am the Department head. i am accountable. Noone else. This is why i demand the best. Professional equipment delivers. Its failure rate when used properly is VERY low, and in the case of the high end DSLR's some of them even have backup SD card slots for redundency. I like redundency. Ask my Editor, DIT and data extrodinaire XmephestoX, hes a member here on DVXuser and one of the best editors, and data wranglers around..... He beat it into my skull to make sure 3 copies of every piece of data exist.
to answer your question, Grant, no i dont trust a tape based HDV format. Because a drop out that will ruin 1 fame of video in DV, will ruin 12-15 in HDV. Thats unacceptable. Absolutly unacceptable and not a chance im willing to take. This is not to say people arent doing great work on the cameras, but i personally dont trust systems like that. i want my producers to receive robust, clear, beautiful footage that is easy to work with, and appropriate for the project.
The very sad part of this reality is that you're going to have people who just can't understand this working environment horror story and combat you with an infantile perspective on "the craft".
I'm with you 100 percent. I haven't gone on a shoot since my first HVX200 P2 Card Loss (oh the feeling is horrible) without warning everyone that's important the ups and the downs of shooting with ANY camera on the job.
Best believe I ripped the Mkii and GH-1 a new one in front of producers, DPs and directors so that they were educated on what would destroy them if they weren't careful.
commanderspike
Carbonite Member
I think Grant means professional in terms of image quality, not reliability? And how is the SXS -> SD Card adapter relevant to a HD-SLR?
But yeah I completely get what you're saying, Timur, the tool has to be up for the demands of the job and in a situation where you can afford the best equipment it's not work risking footage with work-arounds. But in personal creative projects and people starting out in the industry, it's a different matter. Personally, in my situation until it all gets too serious to play-about any more, I'd selotape an umbrella to my GH1 if it meant getting rid of mud, and I'd happily install magic lantern on a Russian made memory card crafted finely from lead and tin if it meant improving the footage and expanding what is creativly possible with the money and equipment one can afford.
There is a gulf on here between the amateur and pro cinematographer, I feel.
The pro industry, which does stuff by the book and at great expense, and the gorilla amateurs who are happy to take a few risks here and there, because even if they lose footage - it doesn't cost them their jobs.
Having said all this, I think the EOS range are very reliable, a few overheating issues with the 7D aside. And having a weather proof body on the 7D is something I may come to be quite jealous of as a 5D owner.
But yeah I completely get what you're saying, Timur, the tool has to be up for the demands of the job and in a situation where you can afford the best equipment it's not work risking footage with work-arounds. But in personal creative projects and people starting out in the industry, it's a different matter. Personally, in my situation until it all gets too serious to play-about any more, I'd selotape an umbrella to my GH1 if it meant getting rid of mud, and I'd happily install magic lantern on a Russian made memory card crafted finely from lead and tin if it meant improving the footage and expanding what is creativly possible with the money and equipment one can afford.
There is a gulf on here between the amateur and pro cinematographer, I feel.
The pro industry, which does stuff by the book and at great expense, and the gorilla amateurs who are happy to take a few risks here and there, because even if they lose footage - it doesn't cost them their jobs.
Having said all this, I think the EOS range are very reliable, a few overheating issues with the 7D aside. And having a weather proof body on the 7D is something I may come to be quite jealous of as a 5D owner.
Commander im my opinon, The sd-> SXS adapter equivalent in 5D terms is the recording codec/DSP of the mkII. you never really know what youre going to get interms of color, macro blocking, moire and aliasing from the CMOS.
Not to mention monitoring problems....
"And having a weather proof body on the 7D is something I may come to be quite jealous of as a 5D owner. "
Yea that too... and boy lemme tell you the overheating is a major problem on the 5D. for every hour of shooting you need 15 minutes of cooling down to keep the image looking acceptable. when the 5D overheats you lose effective light sensitivity, and you gain noise in the signal which turns into macro blocking in the recorded image.
Not to mention monitoring problems....
"And having a weather proof body on the 7D is something I may come to be quite jealous of as a 5D owner. "
Yea that too... and boy lemme tell you the overheating is a major problem on the 5D. for every hour of shooting you need 15 minutes of cooling down to keep the image looking acceptable. when the 5D overheats you lose effective light sensitivity, and you gain noise in the signal which turns into macro blocking in the recorded image.
Ian-T
Veteran
It's funny though Rodney Charters and company seem to be using the Red, 5dll and 7D in a professional environment. They are even having a workshop on how to use them together:
http://hdirawworks.com/page5/page5.html
Click on Demo reels and check out what they have so far.
http://hdirawworks.com/page5/page5.html
Click on Demo reels and check out what they have so far.
commanderspike
Carbonite Member
Over in the GH1 forum we had the same debate over 'professional' usage, and I believe the 5D is a step above the GH1 for professional work, purely down to the faults Timur mentioned being less severe, moire aside. It's not a bad *that* bad a codec.
And they used the 5D on Iron Man 2. HONEST!!
I think Canon had in mind the web as a delivery format for all 5D footage and that's pretty much how it's worked out. If you need a rock solid image (let alone professional recording format), you'll have to stick to the trad kit or wait for generation 2 (or even 3) of the HD-SLRs.
And they used the 5D on Iron Man 2. HONEST!!
I think Canon had in mind the web as a delivery format for all 5D footage and that's pretty much how it's worked out. If you need a rock solid image (let alone professional recording format), you'll have to stick to the trad kit or wait for generation 2 (or even 3) of the HD-SLRs.