4K JVC Consumer Camera with 3D at CES 2011- Red Scarlet blushes...

Thomas Church said:
To be honest, it just puzzles me how no one has released an affordable S35 1080p 50mb 4:2:2 camera at this point.
Click to expand...

I too am surprised. Mostly that Canon (or Nikon?) haven't put the guts of their top of the line DSLR cameras into camcorder bodies with XLR inputs. Both had the opportunity to do so, and instead let Panasonic get to market with the AF100 before them. I can somewhat see why Canon didn't pursue it because of their lens connections to Sony and some of the other big boys, but why didn't Nikon?

As far as this JVC goes, I'm not interested until something is actually released. Otherwise, it's no different than Red, or the Canon hair dryer 4k camera late last year.
 
here is a link to a video from CES.


seems to use h.264/MPEG-4 avc as the format, with a recording size of 3,840x2,160, a resolution of up to 1800 tv lines, bit rate of 144mbs, frame rate 60fps, and the display model is running an output through four hdmi cables to a 4k display.

Seems they do not have in camera recording yet, or from my assumption (oh no.... most likely wrong) either way this is exciting as more options open up. I wonder when they are planning on releasing this camera? or is this just a proof of concept and we will see a whole new body and design for the final model.
 
Last edited:
Cool... seems I was mistaken and their designers are lazy!

Looks just like the old JY-HD10. I loved that camera. Would be great if this comes out.
 
Well, it has me curious, but wake me when I see footage from a working model, and it can be purchased. If it's three months away, great. If it's a year, toss them in the Red category.

Has anyone dubbed this the "Scarlet Killer" yet? I mean, assuming it's 4k, and under $4k, it could top Scarlet's original specs. Though of course what Scarlet has morphed into (Epic) should blow this away. When it's released of course. Be that three months, or...
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__3hIM-HqWw

This observer talks about the 4K resolution, commenting "I'm not trying to faint... it's super-awesome..."

Also, full lineup info on JVC http://youtube.com/watch?v=GGQ0HUlvAHU


If anything, the 4K JVC concept camcorder makes me rethink of 4K as a speedbump on the roadmap to 8K for the decade starting 2020
envisioned by the BBC / NHK, enabled by increases in storage speed/capacity, encoding capabilities and processing power according to Moore's law.

I suspect today's most vocal proponents of 4K (attempting to sell you their "stuff") will likely be the biggest proponents of 8K in the next 5 years, and 3D in 4K...

My 2 cents, very interesting future indeed as I've read 8K approximates the human visual ability to resolve detail...
 
Last edited:
J Bellari said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__3hIM-HqWw

This observer talks about the 4K resolution, commenting "I'm not trying to faint... it's super-awesome..."
Click to expand...

So based on this they are displaying video from this camera on a AstroDesign monitor. Its hard to judge the quality based on a youtube video of someone taking a video of a monitor, but that person seems very impressed. I find it interesting that the first consumer level 4K2k camera is going to do 60p instead of 30p (and possibly with a low-res 300fps mode)

It's really cool stuff. According to JVC a few years ago they required 5 LSIs to do the functions that this FalconBrid can do in one; and this does 4k/60p and 3D. What I find interesting is that 4K and 3D have converged on technological side. This FalconBrid can either do 3D using two 2k/60p or a single 4k/60p.

Most importantly fact about this FalconBrid is its low-cost. The 3D camera that was shown at CES with this chip is going for $2k, hopefully this camera won't be far off in price from the HM100.
 
Electronics shrink at least a node a year, in terms of component size, on a chip. Although I would say, they weren't *required* to do it on 5 LSI designs, they just chose to. They could have done it on one back then and called it VLSI :) (Which the V stands for Very). It just costs more in development time the larger your design, and typically the larger the die, the more chances a non-working part, so you have to make more to make sure you have enough that do work. Chips deal with something know as 'on chip variation' which is changes in the actual physical makeup of the components across the chip. Given that this has gotten smaller over time, this has probably been one of the biggest helps to CMOS imaging sensors as well (and their associated circuitry). That variation will subtract from your dynamic range possibilities (not to mention, non-linearities in photon detection, like hot pixels).
 
This concept is completely off- it's like watching still camera market 5-6 years ago. You cant stick 40MP sensor into point-shoot camera and expect to have the same result as Hasseblad. A small (if it's the same body as HM100 it will be 1/4 to 1/3" range sensor) will never have a DR or light sensitivity of 1080x1920 large sensor camera like AF100 or F3. I bet even low end RED- Scarlet Fixed will produce much better results due to these facts. JVC should work on a 2/3 and 1/2' chip cameras for broadcasters, as they are massively behind Sony and Panasonic in that respect.
 
It depends what is important to the end user. If they care about resolution, then it will matter. If they care about DR and sensitivity, they may care, but I don't agree with your assertion. Look at it this way, look how many more pixels the Red One has and how much smaller they are, yet, they have more DR than MANY larger pixel designs of the same sensor size. It's not just about the pixel size, it's about a lot of factors AND the manufacturing process.

Heck, look at the Alexa and it's dynamic range and native ISO compared to the 5D, and the difference in sensor size.

Size isn't all that matter :)
 
grimepoch said:
It depends what is important to the end user. If they care about resolution, then it will matter. If they care about DR and sensitivity, they may care, but I don't agree with your assertion. Look at it this way, look how many more pixels the Red One has and how much smaller they are, yet, they have more DR than MANY larger pixel designs of the same sensor size. It's not just about the pixel size, it's about a lot of factors AND the manufacturing process.

Heck, look at the Alexa and it's dynamic range and native ISO compared to the 5D, and the difference in sensor size.

Size isn't all that matter :)
Click to expand...

Size does matter...

dSLR sensors like the 5DII, 7D, and AF100 aren't using all the photosites on the sensor, they need to line skip to get down to a 1920x1080 resolution, which is why they get comparatively poor DR compared to a a true video-centric sensor such as the Arri Alexa or Sony F3 which have massive photosites (~3.5k).

Dynamic range is fundamentally a function of how many electrons you can get into a photosite well, there are tricks you can play downstream, but the size of the photosite is the ultimate limiting factor. DR has no industry standard in how its measured in real terms, hence is generally deceptive and can be manipulated. But to get the ideal DR its best to match the target resolution as best as possible.

In relevance to this JVC 4K2K camera, it'll have poorer DR than a large sensor camera with large photosites. However, JVC will double the sensor's sensitivity by using the back-illuminated CMOS (technology which only benefits small sensors), plus it'll further double its sensitivity if it uses an F1.2 lens as the TD1 (the other FalconBrid camera).

What I find amusing is that Canon, makers of the 5DII and 7D, make a perhaps unintentional swipe at video cameras that use more megapixels than needed.

Canon.png

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/standard_display/hd_cmos_pro
 
grimepoch said:
It depends what is important to the end user. If they care about resolution, then it will matter. If they care about DR and sensitivity, they may care, but I don't agree with your assertion. Look at it this way, look how many more pixels the Red One has and how much smaller they are, yet, they have more DR than MANY larger pixel designs of the same sensor size. It's not just about the pixel size, it's about a lot of factors AND the manufacturing process.

Heck, look at the Alexa and it's dynamic range and native ISO compared to the 5D, and the difference in sensor size.

Size isn't all that matter :)
Click to expand...

Both RED and Arri, now also Sony are s35, so the area of the sensor is the same as with 35mm film, hence the results they can produce. There is a limit to how small the body can get to accommodate for such sensors. Also what matters is the size of the lens, where with bigger opening camera can gather more light and detail. It's pure physics and you can't change it- period.
BTW I shoot HM100 and EX1 daily and I can see in the edit the difference between 1920x1080 native 1/2" chip and 1080x720 1/4"- the comparison is totally valid, since they use the same codec. EX1 wins hands down on every shot (even if I shoot 1080/30p or 1080/24p on both)
 
Last edited:
My understanding of the AF100 is that it doesn't line skip, it pixel bins. Which allows you to use that lost area.

Although, I hope you noted that I said "Size isn't all that matters" which you go on to explain the other possibilities for extended DR using back illumination. I absolutely agree that it is a factor, but just one factor.

I also don't see the photosites as massive in the Arri Alexa, they are around 8.25um maximum, whereas the 5Dm2 is 6.4um square. But, look at the Red MX sensor, it has 5.4um square, smaller than the 5Dm2 (and I am talking about using the 5D in photo mode, not movie mode) and it has around 13 stops (not including the HDRx stuff). That's pretty amazing. Granted, DR does not have an industry standard as you say.

There is A LOT of magic that goes into making a sensor. Basing the sensitivity just on the sensor size and resolution is NOT an indication of what you are going to get. So much depends on other factors of the design, including the AD conversion, noise in CMOS circuits, special methodologies in the CMOS technology.

I mean, let's even take it a step further, the M sensor has less dynamic range than the MX sensor, and they are the same exact size. Point being, trying to judge how this camera from JVC is going to behave at 4K just isn't possible till you know everything they are doing. They may be employing methods, just as red has proven, that can allow higher resolutions and higher DR by following different methodologies, which may in fact, not work as well at a larger size. Don't forget, the larger the active area, the longer it is going to take to drain out the current as well. This might be why Red's read/reset time on the Red is so fast.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top