4K FS700 Odyssey 7Q First footage

atarijedi said:
According to the EXIF info for the 4k Sample Frame, it was grabbed using the Gemini 444. What's that all about?
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Dear Atarijedi,

Our firmware for the Odyssey7Q has it's roots in Gemini 4:4:4 firmware.

We put various information (metadata) into the files that we create.

At the time we recorded this 4K footage, from the FS700, on the Odyssey7Q, we had not changed the firmware to put out "Odyssey7Q" instead of "Gemini 4:4:4".
We have been concentrating on much more important features.

This, of course, is on our list of things to change prior to releasing our initial firmware for the Odyssey7Q.

I am sorry for my delay in responding, I am still recovering from Jet Lag.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
paulcurtis said:
I think Dan already said that the O7 could be developed quite fast because it did share a lot of the Geminis firmware (which is a very good thing)

I've scrutinised the footage and i'm very happy. Both with the O7 and the FS700. The 4K is like lifting a veil on the camera, finally i see lines that are smooth and defined. The diagonals on the building look perfect. Vindicating my choice to stick with the 700.

The 2K? Well, back to how i feel about the 1080p from the camera. I can see the downsampling/aliasing on diagonal lines very easily. I've never been 100% on the 1080 output of the camera for this reason. I don't know what scaling happens inside the camera but it's not ideal. There's some very odd artefacting going on around the water which i must assume could be compression related from the camera (the RAW stream is supposed to be compressed). Of course it could be a DNG problem. After Effects CC doesn't open the files with the right colour balance.

The ProRes file isn't log encoded though, so i don't know what is happening with 12 bit linear -> 10 bit.

So i'm a bit 'meh' about the 2K RAW (nothing to do with the O7) but the 4K is another camera.

With some log encoding on that 10bit, i'd be more than happy just to record 4K ProRes. 60fps is a bonus.

Well done CD, you've moved the camera a level up....

cheers
Paul
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Dear Paul,

If possible, we intend to improve the 2K out of the FS700, up to 60 fps.

We have many features of the Odyssey7Q to finish before we tackle this improvement.

This is out goal, and not a promise (I say this in case we run into unexpected problem doing what we have planned.)

Thank you for your kind words.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
sunnyjimfilms said:
CD have said the 7Q can record 4K raw but are unable to because of limitation set by Sony. I guess to protect sales of the R5. I wonder if Sony will lift that limitation in the future, after sales plateau?
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Dear SunnyJimFilms,

It was a big deal for Sony, and for us, to be allowed to work this closely with Sony. In fact, we are honored!

At this time, we are not allowed to record 4K Raw from the FS700.

We would be very happy if Sony removed this restriction, and we feel that this would be good for Sony overall, but this has to be Sony's decision.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
gene_can_sing said:
I downloaded footage and also watched it on YouTube. The 4K 4:2:2 looks clean for sure. As for the 2K RAW, I'm not sure what is going on as I don't know much about RAW.

Watching the 2K RAW clip on YouTube, the darks are pretty crushed so it looks fine, but you cannot really tell from YouTube as we all know. However, I downloaded the RAW DNG files, it's really, really noisy in the blacks and somewhat noisy in the mids once you start to raise the exposure. Not sure if that's because of the initial exposure of the clips where the filmer choose to crush the blacks, therefore it cannot be raised that much in post; or the RAW is just really noisy. When I first brought in the RAW clip, it's default look was very dark and the black were really crushed. I had to really raise the exposure to see into the blacks, which became really noisy.

I have a question about RAW since I know very little about shooting with it.

1) You still have to / should expose properly right? Just because you can change all the setting in post, does not mean that if you crush the blacks on the initial shot, you can go back later and completely raised the blacks in After Effects or give it an S-Log type look?? Basically, RAW just gives you a little more slack if you mess up initially?

2) Cinema DNG, is that a compressed form of RAW? Kind of like how the RED where one can set the level of compression on RED RAW?

Well, I'm optimistic and can't wait to see more footage, especially of the 2K RAW. After looking at the data rates on the 7Q link, I'm really hoping the HD 4:2:2 10 bit comes soon because of very large 4K and RAW files sizes. You would be going through hard drives like firewood with that much data.

Also, I saw no mention of 4:2:2 10 bit at 120fps. I know Dan K. had mentioned that as a possibility. I really hope they implement that. If you are reading this Dan, is that still on the cards?
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Dear Gene,

To start out, I want to state the obvious:

Recording at high frame rates requires more light.

At 240 frames per second, the minimum shutter speed on the FS700 is 1/250th of a second.

I was not there for the shooting, and do not know the camera settings, sorry. I may be able to get these values.

1) You still have to / should expose properly right? Just because you can change all the setting in post, does not mean that if you crush the blacks on the initial shot, you can go back later and completely raised the blacks in After Effects or give it an S-Log type look?? Basically, RAW just gives you a little more slack if you mess up initially?
Click to expand...

Yes, you can expose differently for Raw, but you should expose properly. You sitll need the detail in your images, even it they are raw. I will leave it to others to provide a better answer.

2) Cinema DNG, is that a compressed form of RAW? Kind of like how the RED where one can set the level of compression on RED RAW?
Click to expand...

Here is a link to an article about CinemaDNG.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CinemaDNG

Our FS700 2K Raw footage, recorded to CinemaDNG is not compressed.

We will offer other modes that are compressed, to a popular codec, thus the file sizes will be much more manageable.

Well, I'm optimistic and can't wait to see more footage, especially of the 2K RAW. After looking at the data rates on the 7Q link, I'm really hoping the HD 4:2:2 10 bit comes soon because of very large 4K and RAW files sizes. You would be going through hard drives like firewood with that much data.
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We will be doing our best to provide great HD, in 4:2:2, 10-Bit, Log, derived from the wonderful 4K from the FS700.
This will not be ready with our initial firmware release due to the magnitude of the project.
But, we consider this very important, and will strive to have it ready as soon as possible.



Also, I saw no mention of 4:2:2 10 bit at 120fps. I know Dan K. had mentioned that as a possibility. I really hope they implement that. If you are reading this Dan, is that still on the cards?
Click to expand...

We do plan on implementing this, but we have some other features to finish first.

I am sorry I am late in responding. I have been traveling extensively and I am still recovering from Jet Lag.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
Dan, what formats will the Odissey 7Q upgraded with the Sony option support when coupled with FS700 at the beginning? I can't seem to find this information...:)
 
KINOKS said:
Dan, what formats will the Odissey 7Q upgraded with the Sony option support when coupled with FS700 at the beginning? I can't seem to find this information...:)
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Dear Sanjin,

Here is a link to our website that lists our plans for the various formats:

http://www.convergent-design.com/Products/Odyssey7Q/Sony.aspx

Please note that there are small numbers to the left of each item (hard to see) and this conveys when in our road map certain items will be available.

We would love to have every format ready for our initial firmware release, but some of these formats take a lot of work, and a lot of testing.

We have 2K Raw, 12-Bit Linear, to Cinema DNG at various frame rates, including 120 fps and 240 fps ready at this time.

And we can also record various HD frame rates to DPX, which is full uncompressed. This is ready at this time.

Thus, you will be able to record the normal HD (1080p), out of the FS700 (hardware upgraded or not) to full uncompressed, if desired.

We are still working on our compressed codecs. I cannot tell if these will be ready for our initial shipments or not at this moment.

So, when this is ready, you will be able to record all of the normal HD (1080p) out of the FS700, to a compressed codec.

Later we plan to add HD, up to 60 fps, in 10-Bit Log, in 4:2:2 recorded to a popular compressed codec, derived from the FS700 4K Raw 12-Bit Linear data.

We expect this to be high quality footage.

And we plan to add HD, in RGB, 4:4:4, in 12-Bit Log, recorded to another version of the popular compressed codec, derived from the FS700 4K Raw, 12-Bit Linear data.

We expect this to be very high quality footage.

I hope this helps.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
Dan Keaton said:
Dear Sanjin,

Here is a link to our website that lists our plans for the various formats:

http://www.convergent-design.com/Products/Odyssey7Q/Sony.aspx

Please note that there are small numbers to the left of each item (hard to see) and this conveys when in our road map certain items will be available.

We would love to have every format ready for our initial firmware release, but some of these formats take a lot of work, and a lot of testing.

We have 2K Raw, 12-Bit Linear, to Cinema DNG at various frame rates, including 120 fps and 240 fps ready at this time.

And we can also record various HD frame rates to DPX, which is full uncompressed. This is ready at this time.

Thus, you will be able to record the normal HD (1080p), out of the FS700 (hardware upgraded or not) to full uncompressed, if desired.

We are still working on our compressed codecs. I cannot tell if these will be ready for our initial shipments or not at this moment.

So, when this is ready, you will be able to record all of the normal HD (1080p) out of the FS700, to a compressed codec.

Later we plan to add HD, up to 60 fps, in 10-Bit Log, in 4:2:2 recorded to a popular compressed codec, derived from the FS700 4K Raw 12-Bit Linear data.

We expect this to be high quality footage.

And we plan to add HD, in RGB, 4:4:4, in 12-Bit Log, recorded to another version of the popular compressed codec, derived from the FS700 4K Raw, 12-Bit Linear data.

We expect this to be very high quality footage.

I hope this helps.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
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Hey Dan, Thanks for the detailed info. The 1080p Uncompressed you speak about, will that be 10-bit coming out of the camera? My guess is 8-bit due to the HD-SDI on the 700 being 8-bit? I'm hoping the 4:2:2 10-bit and 4:4:4 12-bit are coming soon. Those are actually more desiarable to me personally than 2k Raw. Hopefully #4 in the road map doesn't mean it's a long way away?
 
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Hey Dan,

I remember a while back you mentioned that it was possible to get 120fps in a 4:2:2 10-bit compressed codec. Is this still in the works? I saw no mention of it on your website.

EDIT: Sorry Dan, I saw you answered this in a previous reply.

Well, here's another question. Is it possible to get 240fps in 4:2:2 10-bit. Sorry to be greedy :) Very excited for the 7Q.
 
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vcfilms said:
Hey Dan, Thanks for the detailed info. The 1080p Uncompressed you speak about, will that be 10-bit coming out of the camera? My guess is 8-bit due to the HD-SDI on the 700 being 8-bit? I'm hoping the 4:2:2 10-bit and 4:4:4 12-bit are coming soon. Those are actually more desiarable to me personally than 2k Raw. Hopefully #4 in the road map doesn't mean it's a long way away?
Click to expand...
It is no video signal whats coming out the 700 when using hfr or odyssey, its a bitstream.
 
vcfilms said:
Hey Dan, Thanks for the detailed info. The 1080p Uncompressed you speak about, will that be 10-bit coming out of the camera? My guess is 8-bit due to the HD-SDI on the 700 being 8-bit? I'm hoping the 4:2:2 10-bit and 4:4:4 12-bit are coming soon. Those are actually more desiarable to me personally than 2k Raw. Hopefully #4 in the road map doesn't mean it's a long way away?
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Dear VCFilms,

Our initial uncompressed, will be from the HD-SDI output of the camera, which in the case of the FS700 is 8-Bit in a 10-Bit word.

Later, we can probably do as you ask, create HD Uncompressed from the 4K Raw, up to 60 fps, since the 4K is limited to 60 fps.

This, frankly, is not actually on our road map, but we do listen to our customers.

We have found it very hard to predict when firmware development and testing will be 100% finished for any given part of the project.

%4 in the road map is more of a sequence than a time frame, but I can't predict accurately.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
gene_can_sing said:
Is it possible to get 240fps in 4:2:2 10-bit. Sorry to be greedy :) Very excited for the 7Q.
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Dear Gene,

Please forgive me, but I need more info.

Do you mean compressed HD, 4:2:2, in 10-Bit derived from the FS700's 2K Raw output, 12-Bit Linear, at 240 fps?

I assume this is what you want.

Frankly, I don't know at this moment, but I can get you an answer.

But, I can tell you that our announced plan is for:

Compressed 1080p 10-bit YCC up to 60fps (super-sampled from 4K Raw) (Limited to 60 fps since the 4K Raw out of the camera is limited to 60 fps.)

To get 120 fps, we have to use the 2K Raw as the source.

I know that this is not a complete answer.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
Hi Dan

I and I'm sure everyone else, appreciates you spending time answering all these questions and I'm sorry to labour the point but I'm a bit confused - will you be able to record true 10 bit 422 HD from the FS or will it be 8 bit in a 10 bit wrapper?
 
sunnyjimfilms said:
Hi Dan

I and I'm sure everyone else, appreciates you spending time answering all these questions and I'm sorry to labour the point but I'm a bit confused - will you be able to record true 10 bit 422 HD from the FS or will it be 8 bit in a 10 bit wrapper?
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Day one it will be 8bit in a 10bit wrapper, basically recording the same as other recorders right now

At a later date they will be taking the 4K signal and scaling it down to 1080p to produce a much higher quality (both in resolution and colour depth), the exact date cannot yet be predicted but it's on their lists.

Hopefully Day one will include 4K to ProRes, in which case you could record that and scale yourself in post to get all the benefits that will one day happen within the recorder.

hth
Paul
 
Dan Keaton said:
And we plan to add HD, in RGB, 4:4:4, in 12-Bit Log, recorded to another version of the popular compressed codec, derived from the FS700 4K Raw, 12-Bit Linear data.

We expect this to be very high quality footage.
Click to expand...

If this works, to me that's the most important thing with Odyssey 7Q.

How can we get an announcement when this feature gets rolled out?
 
Hi Dan.

Maybe off topic but are there any plans on making a smaller Odyssey 7Q in the near future? (5"-5.6") If not, are there any raincovers that will work with the 7Q for run-n-gun style in harsh environments?
 
bsv said:
Hi Dan.

Maybe off topic but are there any plans on making a smaller Odyssey 7Q in the near future? (5"-5.6") If not, are there any raincovers that will work with the 7Q for run-n-gun style in harsh environments?
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Dear BSV,

Porta-Brace showed us a prototype of a protective cover/sunshade for the Odyssey7 and Odyssey7Q.

It looked like it would offer a great deal of protection.

We provided some feedback on their initial prototype.


We do listen to our customers about product ideas.

We are concentrating on the Odyssey7 and Odyssey7Q right now.

But, we could easily make a smaller version.

I do have concerns, the 7.7" monitor offers many advantages, for precise focus, Quad Split, etc.

Many see the spec's for our unit and think it is huge, then once they see it, like the size.

But, I know that there are those that want a smaller version.

We are listening.


Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
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KINOKS said:
Yeah it does thx. But what would really help is info on when everything else is going to be implemented... Not being impatient or anything, it's about production planing...
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Dear Sanjin,

We have been working on such a list, but it is not ready to publish it yet.

I will be traveling tomorrow to the Miami Florida area. Midtown Video is having a Sony Event on Wednesday, 2 PM to 5:30 PM. Please check out their website for additional information.

I will be demo'ing the Odyssey7Q with a Sony FS700 + Upgrade.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
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