4K editing PC build without a dedicated GPU - Intel or AMD?

[roxics]

I picked a bad time to want to build a new editing machine, but my late 2012 Mac Mini has so much on its plate I need to add a new machine and I'm not satisfied with the mac options anymore.

With GPU prices being insane right now, I want to avoid buying one. Which means Integrated GPU for now. I think I should be ok since my Mac Mini has an integrated GPU. At least with a PC I can add one next year when prices go down and I can find one in stock at a local store.

My original idea was to go AMD Ryzen 5, but that was when I was planning on buying and nVidia 1650 or 1660 or something to go with it. Ryzen 5 chips don't have integrated GPUs anymore, only the Ryzen 3 seems to come with one these days. So am I better off going with a Ryzen 3 or an Intel i5 or i7 or something?

I'm trying to stay under around $700 for this build for now. I'll add and upgrade things later as I go. It needs to be able to edit footage from my GH4 and my GoPro Hero5 Black and my C100s. I would like support for H.265 as well.

 

[NorBro]

I feel like we're getting pranked...surely you must have checked out the new Apple M1 Mac Minis which are suitable for this x 1000000, right?

I mean...those computers handle 8K RAW and H.265 like standard-def.

If you're on a budget of $700 for an editing computer, there is nothing on planet earth that even comes close.

 

[filmguy123]

$700? Go for an M1 Mac Mini, what Norbro siad.

$700 would be your budget for the GPU alone on the PC side. And as you said, it's a terrible time to build. If you were building a PC you would want an AMD chip (best multicore) and NVIDIA GPU (cuda) and both are incredibly difficult to find at the moment for retail pricing... and you'd never hit the $700 price point anyhow unless building a very budget build... which in this event, an M1 mac mini would be a better pick.

If you're needing/wanting Windows, up the budget, and get on apps like Hot Stock and Discord channels. I was able to secure an AMD 5950x and Nvidia RTX 3090 for MSRP this way, but that was back in December and things have gotten worse since then, but it's still doable. Otherwise, Intel chips are easier to secure and you could get one with an integrated GPU.

Your camera/codec needs are pretty basic - your add on of H265 though is going to necessitate a higher end build if you want halfway decent performance (or an M1 chip).

If you are really insistent on the $700 build, your best resource will be the forums at anandtech and/or reddit "buildapc".

 

[Peter C.]

I feel like we're getting pranked...surely you must have checked out the new Apple M1 Mac Minis which are suitable for this x 1000000, right?

This. I had been planning on building a hackintosh for years but I couldn't swallow the price of the gpu do to its use in crypto mining. M1 was a god send

 

[roxics]

No not a prank. I've checked out the new Mac Mini. In fact waiting to see the new Apple machines is part of the reason I didn't build a PC last summer.
I just don't know if I want to continue to feed the beast and buy another non-upgradable machine.

I do need to add another machine. But part of it is just me being bored and wanting to tinker a bit. From 1998-2010 I built my own windows boxes. Since then I haven't owned a PC. I've consistently been a mac user since 2010. So going with another mac would be the easiest route for me. Especially considering my ten external drives all formatted to mac.

But I have the itch to build a machine I can throw some new parts in here and there. Rather than dropping $1000+ on a whole machine all at once. Like I did with my 2012 Mac Mini, or my 2017 15" Macbook Pro, or would have to do with the new mac mini since the spec I would want is the 16/512GB model for $1100. After all I'm running 16/512GB in my current 2012 model. Why would I go backwards? And that's not the kind of money I want to spend right now anyway. Top end I want to drop no more than $700 at the moment. So the idea was to build a base level machine and upgrade it over time.

I priced out a PC build at my local Micro center for around $550. Minus a GPU. Though my girlfriend is now telling me she has an old nVidia 7 series GPU I could borrow. Screenshot of the machine I spec'd out.



That said, I also just noticed they have a handful of these HP machines in stock right now with i5s and GTX 1650 GPUs for $699. Though it would need a ram and storage upgrade since it's only sporting 8/256GB. But unlike the mac mini those are user upgradable. Still it's a pre-build machine so not exactly the same as building it myself. I'm guessing components that are a bit more custom to that machine alone.

 

[filmguy123]

Totally understand the desire to build a PC you can upgrade over time and to play in the Windows ecosystem, I am the same way. You can definitely build a PC for $500-$700 that's perfectly serviceable, but you need to realistically decide what your goals are today and long term. The system you spec'ed out is not something I would personally buy to "build off of" over the coming years, but might recommend as a cheap PC option for TODAY.

Your power supply is barely adequate if you want higher powered GPU options in the future, the higher end RTX 3000 series would eat that for lunch. That brand may be fine but I'm the type to go for a trusted quality brand like Corsair or Seasonic for my PSU. Lian Li makes great cases, that's a nice little starter case but it only comes with 2x 120mm fans which may net you throttling issues under heavy workload. That motherboard you linked has minimal PCI slots for expansion, is on the older amd 520 chipset, and is a no frills motherboard. Perfectly adequate for a simple budget rig, but not a long term board you grow and stretch with.

If you want to upgrade to a 5950x when you can get them cheap off ebay in a couple years, you'd want an x570 board now. If you want to add an RTX 3080 TI later, you'll want a beefier PSU. The ryzen's really run better with DDR 3600 RAM, and if you don't want to cap your system long term, consider 32gb total (2x16gb sticks) so that you can add another 2x16gb sticks later on for a total of 64gb. Otherwise you will need to replace all of your RAM to get past 32gb, and if you upgrade to a ryzen 5000 the 3200 speed is fine but will leave some performance on the table.

Do you see where I am going with this? Quality PC's are a beast for long term upgradability, and at the higher end will crush all in one Mac systems both for performance but also for price/performance in long term upgradeability, but not this PC. IMO what you specced is essentially *just* as disposable as the M1 Mac Mini in the longer run. It will perform worse off today and it won't REALLY give you a platform to keep tinkering with for the next decade, because you couldn't even drop a competitive high power GPU in right now, or add more PCI-E cards (say for more M.2 ssds), or get your RAM to 64gb without replacing everything, etc. etc.

How is your business setup? LLC? Here in the states? Depending on your tax bracket, you are looking for at least 40% "off" these prices via a write-off, because it's pre tax money. Did you factor that into your $700? If not, you could up the budget to ~$1200 and it would only cost you ~$720 of take-home cash.

In such case you could look at a little beefier case with some Noctua A14 Chromax fans to get you a good baseline cooling setup and a Noctua NHD-15 Chromax cooler that will travel with you for multiple CPU platforms. A mid tier X570 motherboard with PCI-E 4.0 which will allow you to move to a Ryzen 5900 or 5950x later when they are last gen without penalties for being on the older chipset. 2x16gb sticks of DDR 3600. And a nice Corsair 850w PSU that is high quality, 10 year warranty, and will have enough juice for a RTX 3080 TI in the future. You might also up your boot drive to at least 1TB and consider the Samsung 970 Pro. I also am a big fan of Fractal cases, a little more $$ but the Meshify 2 could be a really nice case that will afford you more options to tinker with down the road.

IMO that HP would be a terrible, terribly buy compared to an M1 Mac Mini. That thing is a dog and pretty outdated... 8gb of 2666mh RAM and a 1650 4gb GPU?

My 2 cents - both items you linked are disposable and not long term upgrade platforms. Either (1) buy an M1 Mac; (2) up your budget and build a rig that is actually a quality foundational upgrade platform, or (3) be realistic that this is just an excuse to play computer legos because you're a iittle bored, and a sub optimal investment considering your stated video goals

 

[filmguy123]

Meshify 2 is on a great sale right now:
https://www.newegg.com/black-fracta...shify 2-_-11-352-140-_-Product&quicklink=true

32gb DDR4 3600 RAM
https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-32gb...heu81cMqWiKvOtV_A5waAqmlEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

ASUS x570 motherboard:
https://www.newegg.com/asus-tuf-gam...erboard-_-13-119-197-_-Product&quicklink=true

Corsair 850w
https://www.newegg.com/corsair-rm-s...ir_850w-_-17-139-248-_-Product&quicklink=true

Noctua D15 (chromax is usually the same price, but, #covid)
https://www.newegg.com/noctua-nh-d15/p/N82E16835608045

2x Noctua A14 fans
https://www.newegg.com/noctua-nf-a1...tua_a14-_-35-608-044-_-Product&quicklink=true
(add these to the case fans that come with the Meshify 2 for a nice setup)

This should get you closer to around $1200 with the same AMD chip, and around $700 post write-off

 

[filmguy123]

so it appears none of those links work properly, and I don't know why... but if you're interested I can find the parts again

 

[roxics]

Firstly filmguy123 thanks for your suggestions and advice. I do appreciate it. Though I think your concept of upgradable and mine are a bit different. lol

I just want something where I can upgrade the ram (even if I have to replace it all) or add a higher capacity m.2 card or add a dedicated GPU like a 1650 or 1660 or 2060 or something down the line. Nothing crazy. If I ever upgraded the CPU it would probably be five years down the line and I’d want a new motherboard anyway. Even then the CPU would likely still be the $200 model of whatever is out then. Big perks for me would be adding a $30 firewire card inside it. Things you just can’t do to a new mac these days without maybe going full Mac Pro. 



Also I’ve been editing C100 and GH4 footage on a 2012 Mac mini this whole time so anything more powerful is an upgrade.



Side note: I just looked at my About this Mac and it said 8GB of ram. Turns out I never properly reseated one of my sticks of ram last year when I had to pull my drive and reformat it. That was February 2nd, 2020. I must have been running off 8GB for over a year now and never realized it. Just another reason why 2020 sucked. lol.

 

[Bassman2003]

AMD seems to be a little better in terms of an upgrade plan for its systems. Intel in my view, left the upgrade path approach a long time ago. It seems difficult to not buy a new mobo, RAM and CPU as a trio when doing an upgrade. So I see even home built systems as being sort of single use outside of the case and PSU (if they are big enough).

 

[filmguy123]

Though I think your concept of upgradable and mine are a bit different. lol

I just want something where I can upgrade the ram (even if I have to replace it all) or add a higher capacity m.2 card or add a dedicated GPU like a 1650 or 1660 or 2060 or something down the line. Nothing crazy. If I ever upgraded the CPU it would probably be five years down the line and I’d want a new motherboard anyway. Even then the CPU would likely still be the $200 model of whatever is out then. Big perks for me would be adding a $30 firewire card inside it. Things you just can’t do to a new mac these days without maybe going full Mac Pro. 



Also I’ve been editing C100 and GH4 footage on a 2012 Mac mini this whole time so anything more powerful is an upgrade.



Side note: I just looked at my About this Mac and it said 8GB of ram. Turns out I never properly reseated one of my sticks of ram last year when I had to pull my drive and reformat it. That was February 2nd, 2020. I must have been running off 8GB for over a year now and never realized it. Just another reason why 2020 sucked. lol.

Well, I am just pointing out where upgradeability intersects with cost efficiency in today's market, which is different than a few years back thanks to the M1. Have you compared benchmarks on the M1 chips?

Essentially, you are saying that you aren't REALLY going to use the PC as an upgradeable platform, it's mostly going to be disposed of with a potential full replacement of RAM, a power supply that won't give any headroom upgrade and may fizzle out in a few years, etc. If you are looking to upgrade the CPU in 5 years time, it wouldn't be worth it, because you will be capped with that platform (AM4 socket and 520 chipset) and later spending $200 on a 5.5 year old chip (the ryzen 5000 series) is your only option, and in a few years that will only net you minimal performance bump at that price point and with that 520 chipset, which wouldn't even be worth the $200 in a few years time.

Adding a higher capacity m.2 will be a pain, because you only have 1 m.2 slot and it will be your boot drive, so you'll have to buy an extra adapter to clone your boot drive over to a second m2. drive, and that costs some extra $$ (and time). And then you'll need to toss or try to sell the original m.2 because you don't have any additional internal storage for it, and most of these items here will have near zero resale value in a few years, so it's still largely disposable. Maybe you could make it an external USB drive, but then you're capped at 1250mb/s and under utilizing the m.2 and the enclosure also costs money...

Next thing to point out is that without a quality dedicated GPU, you shouldn't be going with AMD right now anyway for video editing, because it lacks Intel Quicksync which accelerates your h.264 and h.265 files. You need a newer nvidia GPU that has NVDEC in order to decode those files if you want to edit video on AMD. That AMD with integrated GPU could literally be a step backwards from your intel base 2012 Mac Mini once you lose Intel quicksync and don't replace it with a modern nvidia GPU, because you will be stuck with software decode only - which will really not be great.

As for RAM, 8gb on a Mac is roughly equivalent to 16gb on windows, OS X has always been better with memory management (even though Windows 10 is much better than before). 8gb on Windows won't fair as well as on OS X.

Adding up total cost, you're going to drop $550 on a build with a questionable PSU, for something you will upgrade minimally ("nothing crazy") that will require you to junk the parts you start with (with 1 m.2 slot you'll be tossing the WD 500gb SD and possibly the RAM), etc. For a system without hardware decoding via either Intel QuickSync or a modern nvidia GPU, and only planning to add a GPU later... which will finally get you hardware decoding back, but a model that is already outdated today and very vram limited.

Today, you can get something that is faster (M1 Mac Mini) than what you would plan to upgrade to down the road. Right now, and for only a smidge more ($900). And which will hold its resale value better in a few years time than a handful of low end parts which will cost more in shipping on ebay than they are worth. Let's say you sell the M1 Mac Mini in 3 years for $400, now you've only spent $500. I don't think you would be able to sell that PC for $400 in 3 years, but you will have to dump more into it and it will still be slower than the M1.

Not trying to rain on the parade on your desire to build a PC because I LOVE doing the same thing, and maybe it's worth it for the fun of tinkering and that is 100% valid. From a business perspective, though, I just don't see the ROI in what you are proposing and I think you'll end up disappointed, and have a net cash loss over a 5 year slice. The M1 Mac you could resell and gain back a big chunk of your money in a few years, the PC you specced I think is going to cost you more for less performance and will be just as disposable.

As for firewire, I didn't know anyone was still using that, but you can get a USB-C to firewire adapter for less than $30 that will perform better than an add in PCI-e card on the system you specced, because that motherboard only has additional PCI-E 1x slots, which are lower bandwidth than a fast external USB-C 10gbps connection. (PCIe 3.0 1x bandwidth = 985MB/s // USB-C bandwidth = 1250 mb/s).

If you are really committed to the PC build and aren't adding a 1000 series GPU right at the start, you'll want (*need*) to go with an Intel chip that supports QuickSync. Here is a list of Nvidia GPUs and what they support for NVdec:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia_NVDEC

 

[roxics]

I feel like I’m in a cult and you’re all trying to convince me not to leave. Which only makes me want to leave more. Lol

So an Intel chip then for both the integrated graphics and the H.265 support. Good to know.

 

[Bassman2003]

The fly in the ointment is if you shoot in 4:2:2 color. This is not accelerated by Quicksync or NVidia. I do believe it is accelerated by the M1 which is why so many like it. But I am not a MAC user, so I might be wrong here. Might pay to do some research as 10bit 4:2:2 is my preferred acquisition format which led me to an Intel enthusiast system build.

 

[filmguy123]

I have all desktop PCs and only an Apple laptop. We all just want you to be happy, roxics

Yes, Intel with quick sync if you’re not buying an nvidia card now.

 

[NorBro]

The fly in the ointment is if you shoot in 4:2:2 color. This is not accelerated by Quicksync or NVidia. I do believe it is accelerated by the M1 which is why so many like it. But I am not a MAC user, so I might be wrong here. Might pay to do some research as 10bit 4:2:2 is my preferred acquisition format which led me to an Intel enthusiast system build.

The M1 does with H.265 10-bit 4:2:2, which is still very uncommon.

I believe Canon were the first to use it and mostly everyone else is offering 10-bit 4:2:0, which isn't as much of a problem for other computer hardware.

 

[Jaime Valles]

Dude, listen to everyone here. I'm typing this on my Windows 10 beast desktop I built 3 years ago for $5000, so I'm with you on the whole "build a PC" allure. But there's no way I would buy a PC for $700 when the M1 Mac Mini is available and will thoroughly, absolutely destroy the equally priced PC for video editing.

 

[roxics]

Dude, listen to everyone here. I'm typing this on my Windows 10 beast desktop I built 3 years ago for $5000, so I'm with you on the whole "build a PC" allure. But there's no way I would buy a PC for $700 when the M1 Mac Mini is available and will thoroughly, absolutely destroy the equally priced PC for video editing.

I don’t want another Mac. I want to build a PC. Please everyone stop pushing the Mac on me.

 

[filmguy123]

I don't believe anyone is steering you away from a PC, but rather feedbacking your budget and steering you away from building a $500-$700 PC.

I just recently built a PC myself in the last few months, and I'd encourage you to do so as it's a great way to go... but not at that price point.

As mentioned earlier, I'd encourage you towards reddit's buildapc sub and the anandtech forums as the communities there specialize in building pcs and finding the best bang for buck deals.

 

[roxics]

I just think you guys are way overthinking this. I have a $700 budget. 95% of what I edit is 24Mbps 1080p files with the occasional 5% 100Mbps UHD GH4 files.

This is meant to be a fun project, an excuse to blow six or seven hundred on a PC I can tinker with and tell my girlfriend it’s an editing machine for work. And it is. But again, what I edit isn’t heavy duty.
Even if this new machine is only 1% faster and lets me swap out the SSD, add an internal firewire card, and add a budget GPU next year, I will be thrilled. 



My hope was that a $225-$250 2021 Ryzen 5 or Core i5 desktop CPU would be faster than a 2012 mac mini running a laptop processor. 

My standards are low. Or at least I thought they were. 



The machine I spec’d out with either AMD or Intel comes in at $550-$580. I plan to buy the parts from my local Micro Center in person. They have good prices.
I just needed to know if I was better off going AMD or Intel since GPUs are not available at reasonable prices right now.

 

[filmguy123]

I just think you guys are way overthinking this. I have a $700 budget. 95% of what I edit is 24Mbps 1080p files with the occasional 5% 100Mbps UHD GH4 files.

This is meant to be a fun project, an excuse to blow six or seven hundred on a PC I can tinker with and tell my girlfriend it’s an editing machine for work.

Not trying to rain on the parade on your desire to build a PC because I LOVE doing the same thing, and maybe it's worth it for the fun of tinkering and that is 100% valid. From a business perspective, though, I just don't see the ROI in what you are proposing

Totally understand the desire to build a PC you can upgrade over time and to play in the Windows ecosystem...

My 2 cents - (3) be realistic that this is just an excuse to play computer legos because you're a little bored, and a sub optimal investment considering your stated video goals

Don't think anyone's overthinking it

My hope was that a $225-$250 2021 Ryzen 5 or Core i5 desktop CPU would be faster than a 2012 mac mini running a laptop processor. I just needed to know if I was better off going AMD or Intel since GPUs are not available at reasonable prices right now.

AMD is by far the better CPU right now for pure CPU performance, however, it requires a dedicated GPU for decent h.264 performance so you'd need the GPU right away. Which unfortunately means choosing Intel for quicksync today, but then negating the need for that unideal choice by adding the GPU later.

If you built that AMD system you shared but without the dedicated GPU up front, it very well may have performed slower than your mac mini for the specific task at hand.

Even if this new machine is only 1% faster and lets me swap out the SSD, add an internal firewire card, and add a budget GPU next year, I will be thrilled.

We won't tell your girlfriend