4k DSLR doesn't make sense

latyshev

latyshev

Active member
I've seen a few threads on this topic and some people say 4k DSLR from Canon is coming soon. Thats a joke, isn't it?

1. Acquisition. DSLRs are yet to master 1080p. Although new MkIII and D800 are very impressive, they still have some issues. They overheat. They are 8bit. Compressed. Line skipped. Etc. None can do 1080/60p, and those who can fall apart badly. So how in the light of this can you expect anyone to make 4k DSLR? Not to mention Canon, who have to protect their video cameras. $16.000 C300 that can't even do 1080/60p? What processors will they use, what batteries will power them and where will the heat go? And how much will it cost?

2. Distribution. Where are you going to watch your 4k stuff? I can hardly tell a difference between 720p and 1080p on my 50inch plasma. How many inches on TV screen will i need and how close am i going to sit? Not to mention how much it will cost. My brand new Mac screen is 27' and 2.5k resolution. My local IMAX is not 4k, ffs.

In the light of this, i don't see any 4k DSLRs happening in the next 2-3 years. And properly catching up in 5-6 and more.
 
Its not a joke. Canon created a new division within their company called Cinema EOS and the c300 is the first product. The EF mount cine lenses and the c series 4k dslr were announced. Look back and note how the video on the t2i, 60d and 7d is identical, the 5dm3 video is no real improvement on the 5dm2 ? This is because its is an add on to a camera who's primary purpose is stills. Canon have stated the c series 4k dslr is a dslr designed for video - its not from their stills division.

press release
http://usa.canon.com/cusa/about_canon/newsroom?pageKeyCode=pressreldetail&docId=0901e024803cf0aa
 
As J Davis said, this is not a rumour or a "wishlist." It is something that Canon are actually in the process of making. The DSLR's are yet to master 1080p becuase, well, they are DSLR's! They are not designed from the ground up for video and compromises must be made to the video quality (whether for technical, marketing or cost reasons) to ensure the stills quality is not at all afected.

As for the heat, batteries and the processors, well if RED could do it from scratch with no prior camera manufacturing experience, then I am sure Canon can do it properly if they put their mind (and money) to it, given the amount of experience and resources they have. Yes, there are still a lot of unknowns (not least of all price!) but it is expected to be announced this year according to Canon themselves.

As for distribution, I tend to agree with you on some of those points. I'd rather they just release a sharp 1080p camera with 50/60fps at full HD, and a decent codec. But then, you could argue about all the benefits you get with higher res like the ability to crop in post, high quality frame-grabs (which can reduce cost by doing 2 jobs at the same time), etc, and how those benefits are good even for people distributing in HD, and you can see their reasoning. Plus 4K is a great marketing term for them! It will probably be seperated from the C300 in the same way as the 5dmkIII/1Dx are (disregarding image quality) - less audio control, no ND filters, no clean HDMI, etc, etc. I just hope we don't have to wait too long for it!
 
If you have ever worked with raw still files from a modern pro DLSR, even cropped to 6mp you would instantly want your movie work to look like that and have that much space in post

My nikon D3, even at the lowest jpg setting using 12FPS burst mode makes unbelievable 'video'

It has long seemed to simple non tech people such as myself that if you can shoot at 12FPS at 12mp you should be able to shoot a 25FPS at 6mp

It seems like the current best DSLRs have an 'engine' that has the power to produce alexa quality video


..if they could double or triple the frame rate
..if they could record it
..if it dint buffer out after a couple of seconds
..if it didnt overheat
..if it didn't wear out the shutter

OF course jumping those hurdles could make it as expensive as an Alexa/Epic !

I agree with the other poster that 2k raw seems a more sensible goal, more achievable, more storable, and still up there with all but the highest end aquisition systems

Best

SamMM
 
The 4K Canon DSLR will probably compete with the RED Scarlet. Hopefully they'll release it faster than RED did with the Scarlet after it was announced.
 
Imamacuser said:
The 4K Canon DSLR will probably compete with the RED Scarlet. Hopefully they'll release it faster than RED did with the Scarlet after it was announced.
Click to expand...

Researching, designing testing and manufacturing a camera that does what the Scarlet does does not happen in a week.

This stuff takes time.
 
I'm sure by "4K DSLR" what Canon really means is a 4K sensor outputting to 1080p just like the C300.

It makes little sense for them to debut a product that will trump the new C300. It makes more sense for them to create a cheaper more compact C300 using the same sensor and same matching "look" that can be used in tight places. The ergonomics will be the trade off for the lower price/smaller size.
 
I think the evidence is already there. If Canon had this technology they would have put it in the C300, which was announced only 5 months ago. So unless this camera will be the same price or higher, expect a repackaged C300.
 
@roxics - check the press release I linked to. 4k video as a stream of jpegs in a container with audio at a frame rate of 24p, no other frame rates mentioned
 
"My Nikon D3, even at the lowest jpg setting using 12FPS burst mode makes unbelievable video" -- how many frames were you able to shoot in this way before the buffer filled up?

Thanks.
 
deltoidjohn said:
I'd rather they just release a sharp 1080p camera with 50/60fps at full HD, and a decent codec.
Click to expand...

Add uncompressed 10-bit and deal me in as well. I'd rather that than 4K with a low res codec. HD at full resolution still leaves a lot of latitude for post as well as providing beautiful images.
 
J Davis said:
@roxics - check the press release I linked to. 4k video as a stream of jpegs in a container with audio at a frame rate of 24p, no other frame rates mentioned
Click to expand...

Well then I stand corrected. I'm not sure how I missed that link reading the thread the first time. This sounds good to me. If all it is is 24 8MP jpegs per second let's hope it isn't priced north of $5k.
 
I was going to start a thread similar to this, then found it here...except mine was going to be just about the form factor and the naming, not even about 4K really. Why make a Cinema DSLR when it isn't going to be a DSLR as we know it anyway....seems rather silly. The knock on DSLRs is that they have aliasing/moire, not the right form factor for controls and built in stuff like ND filters, no inputs for audio etc etc. Most of these issues are because they are STILLS cameras after all....
SOOOO, if you are utilizing a sensor for video OVER stills which will give an alias moire free sharp image WHY FOR THE LOVE OF GOD put it in a still camera body!! I might just start a new thread as well...
 
WHY FOR THE LOVE OF GOD put it in a still camera body!! I might just start a new thread as well...
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. It's silly. I would rather have it in a handicam type body. Like a larger size hv30, or the old hi eight body style. This would give the room for better controls, and still very small. But hey, what do I know. I just shoot with them.
 
pulpfiction007 said:
I was going to start a thread similar to this, then found it here...except mine was going to be just about the form factor and the naming, not even about 4K really. Why make a Cinema DSLR when it isn't going to be a DSLR as we know it anyway....seems rather silly. The knock on DSLRs is that they have aliasing/moire, not the right form factor for controls and built in stuff like ND filters, no inputs for audio etc etc. Most of these issues are because they are STILLS cameras after all....
SOOOO, if you are utilizing a sensor for video OVER stills which will give an alias moire free sharp image WHY FOR THE LOVE OF GOD put it in a still camera body!! I might just start a new thread as well...
Click to expand...

maranfilms said:
I couldn't agree more. It's silly. I would rather have it in a handicam type body. Like a larger size hv30, or the old hi eight body style. This would give the room for better controls, and still very small. But hey, what do I know. I just shoot with them.
Click to expand...

I personally like the DSLR form factor more so to the traditional video camera form factor. I think others do as well which is why camera such as the C300 and the Scarlet/Epic are beginning to look more like DSLRs and less like traditional video cameras. I rig up my F3 just as much as I do my DSLRs, so I'd rather have the option to strip the camera down for a small light package, than not.
 
After working almost exclusively on DSLRs for the past couple years I'm totally used to the form factor and would welcome a "cinema" DSLR. I'm more interested in how the camera's image performs both aesthetically and technically than anything else. The Motion-JPEG compression...that makes me nervous. If it's some sort of shortcut or mechanism to get 4K "video" then I'd rather have Canon skip that step and just give me a solid 1920x1080p image from a native 4K sensor, like the C300, in a package that I can drop right into post without having to transcode (read: not like current DSLRs which use H.264 compression and don't even resolve 1000 lines). Alexa does Arri RAW at 2K or you can record straight to Pro Res 422 files in 1080p - I'd welcome a similar workflow on Canon's cinema DSLR.
 
I'm guessing the reason it's in a DSLR body is because they are building it from the guts of the 1DX. Same sensor, same dual Digic V+, just re-purposed. Certainly it would save time and development / tooling costs.

I'm also seeing lots of options with this camera:

FF 1080p H264, hopefully a *working* 91 mbps I-frame codec.

"H"-crop 4K (Probably 3840 x 2160) MJPEG hopefully this will be at least 360 (90 x 4) mbps

FF 18+mp Raw stills

And as Barry pointed out, although a straight 4K MJPEG from a Bayer sensor is only "4:2:0" (For want of a better term) by downsampling to 1920 x 1080 you'd have 4:4:4 for VFX.

So all-in-all a versatile image-making machine. Looks good to me, just a pity I won't be able to afford it :(
 
Form factor , form factor indeed!
I've shot with many SLR's and three 'boxy' still cameras. Kowa66, RB67 and Hasselblad 500cm. Oh and of course view cameras.
In all honesty the Hassy was tops form factor wise. With a 90º prism, it was natural for eye level work and unsurpassed for everything from upside down (waist level finder) to floor level, waist level finder. The SLR's (Nikon & Leica) were handy and cheap enough (not Leica) to allow us three bodies.
The Sony FS100 seems to be the only broadcast caliber prosumer kit that handles like the Old Hassy.
The next generation of HYBRID cameras will have no prism, look like a blend between the C300 and the FS100 and basically be a Scarlet killer.
I know the generation younger than me (55) has really taken to the SLR form factor but it reminds me of the jokes we used to make about the Pentax 6X7 wanting to be an SLR on steroids.
SLR for factor works well when small! The Olympus E-M5 springs to mind. But that's a Soccer Mom / photojournalist's form factor. The big clunky DSLR's eh!
To fan the flames a bit more.... I fell deeply in love with flip-out screens and can't believe the high end DSLRs don't have them like the GH2.
Try the boxy shape. You'll love it.
 
Finnegan said:
After working almost exclusively on DSLRs for the past couple years I'm totally used to the form factor and would welcome a "cinema" DSLR. I'm more interested in how the camera's image performs both aesthetically and technically than anything else. The Motion-JPEG compression...that makes me nervous. If it's some sort of shortcut or mechanism to get 4K "video" then I'd rather have Canon skip that step and just give me a solid 1920x1080p image from a native 4K sensor, like the C300, in a package that I can drop right into post without having to transcode (read: not like current DSLRs which use H.264 compression and don't even resolve 1000 lines). Alexa does Arri RAW at 2K or you can record straight to Pro Res 422 files in 1080p - I'd welcome a similar workflow on Canon's cinema DSLR.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly - Clean, sharp, true 1080p recorded straigh to ProRes or Cinefrom would be awesome.

I'm also a fan of the DSLR form factor as it allows you to rig up however you want - shoulder mounts, stabilisers, rails, cages, etc; the small form factor allows you to assemble your rig as required in a way that even the AF100/FS100 don't. For example, if I want to use a Nikon 80-200 on the AF100, I would probably need to setup rails and a lens support, as both the lens and the camera are too heavy to leave dangling off the lens mount unsupported. With a DSLR though, I can put a big lens straight onto the tripod and leave the DSLR body dangling off the back - quick, easy and cheap.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top