4K, 2K raw and the rest on the Shogun and 7Q+

To me the main differences between those cameras is that the fs700+7q+has ND, speedbooster, adjustable analog gain, 120fps 4k, 240fps 2k, inexpensive media, and the 7q+ is a great quad monitor and dual recorder that's easy to take on jobs you aren't shooting on fs700. Also handy to have th fs700-only option for small jobs or easy shooting all day.

That said, 4.6k has a newer sensor with a somewhat better image at base sensitivity and is an easier grab and go package though not without its ergonomic problems. The fs700+7q needs a battery solution for the 7q which can take some figuring out.

If you have your heart set on raw, though, the compressed raw options of the 4.6k maybe the deal maker as long as you don't mind the more limited workflow, since fs700+7q raw is massive. Frankly I wouldn't touch the stuff though when 4k prores is so easy and high quality.
 
Yes the 4:1 compression on the BlackMagic camera is the right direction but still not really enough. But at the moment the recording times I've found to compare are, Ursa Mini at 4608x2592, 4:1 Raw, gives you 0:31 on a 256GB card and the Odyssey 7Q ProRes 422 HQ at 4K gives 0:38 on a 256GB SSD. So they are surprisingly similar according to what I've found on line. And the Raw DNGs off the FS700 are, as you say, not practical. In 4K it's listed as 0:12 for a 256GB SSD!

ProRes 422 HQ is very solid, I wouldn't be looking at the FS700 if I didn't agreed but Raw is a pleasure if you can handle the workflow. As for peripherals, I have a rig with power and such and the FS700 will fit onto it perfectly I'm sure, so this is covered. Though I'm not so sure where I'll put the 7Q when it's on the shoulder.

According to a comparison test by Cinema 5D of the FS7 and the Ursa Mini 4.6K the dynamic range is very similar and I'm guessing the Raw strait out of the FS700 will have a similar range to the FS7 as it's the same sensor I think. In the end the pricing is also very close between the FS700/7Q/Speed Booster and the Ursa Mini and media.
 
Milan O. said:
I don't care much about how my gear looks, but the Inferno is just too big.
Click to expand...

I dont know where you're getting that idea from. The Inferno is only 7mm wider, but a few cm shorter. Once you add a battery plate to the 7q+, they're the same thickness. Weight difference is only 200g, but this gap gets narrower if you have ssd's in both slots on the 7q+.

Most of the extra bulk of the Inferno is owing to the built-in rubber padding which makes it less prone to bumps or knocks - well worth it. And lets not forget that to use the 7q+ outdoors, you'll probably want to add at least the slim hood which is more weight and bulk.

Overall the size/weight diggerence in negligible and should not really be considered a point of difference when choosing between the two.
 
deltoidjohn said:
I dont know where you're getting that idea from. The Inferno is only 7mm wider, but a few cm shorter. Once you add a battery plate to the 7q+, they're the same thickness. Weight difference is only 200g, but this gap gets narrower if you have ssd's in both slots on the 7q+.

Most of the extra bulk of the Inferno is owing to the built-in rubber padding which makes it less prone to bumps or knocks - well worth it. And lets not forget that to use the 7q+ outdoors, you'll probably want to add at least the slim hood which is more weight and bulk.

Overall the size/weight diggerence in negligible and should not really be considered a point of difference when choosing between the two.
Click to expand...

Yes that's a fair point, on closer inspection the difference is not as great as I thought. I run everything off V-mounts so I'm looking at the screens alone. 560g vs 650g I think is the weights of the respective units. I cant say I'm very impressed with the yellow rubber bumpers. It's not something that I have ever looked at my kit and wished was stuck on there. I'd rather have a more compact unit, a metal body would of been nice but all in all weight and size it not a big difference as you say.

The higher frame rates is not an important feature for me, I'm not sure you can put 240p through an SDI and onto an external recorder without some compromises anyhow. At the moment the 7Q has the super sampled formats from the 4K and the Raw vs the better price of the Atomos, there apparently is Raw on the Shogun now though I don't know how stable it is.
 
yadnom1973 said:
Yes that's a fair point, on closer inspection the difference is not as great as I thought. I run everything off V-mounts so I'm looking at the screens alone. 560g vs 650g I think is the weights of the respective units. I cant say I'm very impressed with the yellow rubber bumpers. It's not something that I have ever looked at my kit and wished was stuck on there. I'd rather have a more compact unit, a metal body would of been nice but all in all weight and size it not a big difference as you say.

The higher frame rates is not an important feature for me, I'm not sure you can put 240p through an SDI and onto an external recorder without some compromises anyhow. At the moment the 7Q has the super sampled formats from the 4K and the Raw vs the better price of the Atomos, there apparently is Raw on the Shogun now though I don't know how stable it is.
Click to expand...

I think you need to do a bit more research on the Shogun line as you're getting a few different models mixed up. You seem to be referencing the original shogun which had the yellow rubber sleeve for protection. It also has a beta firmware which allows you to record raw, but this is not recommended for professional scenarios. The current flagship Shogun - the Shogun Inferno - is all black, has rubber bumpers built in and feels stronger to my hands than the 7q+ (the 7q+ feels as though it'll shatter if I hold it too hard!). It has dual hot-swappable battery slots built in so a power solution is a no-brainer, though you can use external power via the included D-tap cable if you prefer. It also does 240fps at 2K and 60fps at 4k - and there are no "compromises" putting 240p through SDI - it is the same amount of data as 4K60p, and it is raw data only, so it does not have to conform to any video-standards or limitations like you do with the HDMI port, for example. The Shogun Inferno also has a promised firmware update to allow raw recording (production-release firmware, unlike the original Shogun raw beta).

The main practical advantages of the 7q+ over the Shogun Inferno for Sony FS5/7/700 are:
- 4K to HD super-sampling for superior quality 1080p Prores.
- 1080p/UHD - The O7q+ will crop the 2k/4k raw stream into a 1080p or UHD 16:9 image. The Shogun Inferno will only record it as 2K or 4K.
- Raw recording is available now
- 4K 120fps burst mode

The benefits of the Shogun Inferno are:
- Less expensive
- Easy & cheaper power and SSD solutions
- Better monitor
- LUT recording
- DNxHD/DNxHR

You may have already made up your mind and I'm not trying to reverse your decision; I just want to make sure that others who stumble upon this thread do not get incorrect information which effects their purchase decisions.
 
deltoidjohn said:
I think you need to do a bit more research on the Shogun line as you're getting a few different models mixed up. You seem to be referencing the original shogun which had the yellow rubber sleeve for protection. It also has a beta firmware which allows you to record raw, but this is not recommended for professional scenarios. The current flagship Shogun - the Shogun Inferno - is all black, has rubber bumpers built in and feels stronger to my hands than the 7q+ (the 7q+ feels as though it'll shatter if I hold it too hard!). It has dual hot-swappable battery slots built in so a power solution is a no-brainer, though you can use external power via the included D-tap cable if you prefer. It also does 240fps at 2K and 60fps at 4k - and there are no "compromises" putting 240p through SDI - it is the same amount of data as 4K60p, and it is raw data only, so it does not have to conform to any video-standards or limitations like you do with the HDMI port, for example. The Shogun Inferno also has a promised firmware update to allow raw recording (production-release firmware, unlike the original Shogun raw beta).

The main practical advantages of the 7q+ over the Shogun Inferno for Sony FS5/7/700 are:
- 4K to HD super-sampling for superior quality 1080p Prores.
- 1080p/UHD - The O7q+ will crop the 2k/4k raw stream into a 1080p or UHD 16:9 image. The Shogun Inferno will only record it as 2K or 4K.
- Raw recording is available now
- 4K 120fps burst mode

The benefits of the Shogun Inferno are:
- Less expensive
- Easy & cheaper power and SSD solutions
- Better monitor
- LUT recording
- DNxHD/DNxHR

You may have already made up your mind and I'm not trying to reverse your decision; I just want to make sure that others who stumble upon this thread do not get incorrect information which effects their purchase decisions.
Click to expand...

mmmm, sweet, sweet DNx

Is the monitor that much better? I haven't seen one in person, hard to judge online...
 
It looks great so far indoors, but I haven't taken it out on a proper shoot outdoors yet.

I've used the Odyssey quite a few times and I've got to say I much prefer the Inferno so far as a monitor - the Atom HDR preview looks great and LUTs are easy to use. I think the Inferno screen might be a bit more reflective but it also seems to pick up less fingerprints.
 
I might be wrong but I've heard that the updated 8.1 OS only let you record HFR (2K@120/240p) at 8bit 4:2:0, is that correct?
 
Yes, the latest firmware does allow 120 & 240fps. The lower-bitrate versions of DNxHD are 8-bit 4:2:2, but the higher ones & the Prores are all 10-bit.
 
deltoidjohn said:
I think you need to do a bit more research on the Shogun line as you're getting a few different models mixed up. You seem to be referencing the original shogun which had the yellow rubber sleeve for protection. It also has a beta firmware which allows you to record raw, but this is not recommended for professional scenarios. The current flagship Shogun - the Shogun Inferno - is all black, has rubber bumpers built in and feels stronger to my hands than the 7q+ (the 7q+ feels as though it'll shatter if I hold it too hard!). It has dual hot-swappable battery slots built in so a power solution is a no-brainer, though you can use external power via the included D-tap cable if you prefer. It also does 240fps at 2K and 60fps at 4k - and there are no "compromises" putting 240p through SDI - it is the same amount of data as 4K60p, and it is raw data only, so it does not have to conform to any video-standards or limitations like you do with the HDMI port, for example. The Shogun Inferno also has a promised firmware update to allow raw recording (production-release firmware, unlike the original Shogun raw beta).

The main practical advantages of the 7q+ over the Shogun Inferno for Sony FS5/7/700 are:
- 4K to HD super-sampling for superior quality 1080p Prores.
- 1080p/UHD - The O7q+ will crop the 2k/4k raw stream into a 1080p or UHD 16:9 image. The Shogun Inferno will only record it as 2K or 4K.
- Raw recording is available now
- 4K 120fps burst mode

The benefits of the Shogun Inferno are:
- Less expensive
- Easy & cheaper power and SSD solutions
- Better monitor
- LUT recording
- DNxHD/DNxHR

You may have already made up your mind and I'm not trying to reverse your decision; I just want to make sure that others who stumble upon this thread do not get incorrect information which effects their purchase decisions.
Click to expand...

I have not made up my mind and I'm not peddling false information to anyone. I'm just a guy looking to buy some kit and asking question and I have never come across such polarised answers before. This is one of several threads I have open on the subject at the moment and I've also been in contact with independent organisations like Cinerma5D to try and understand what compromised might be made in these pipelines.
You have confused the inferno for their latest range which it is not, the only thing it can do that the rest of it's yellow bumpered brethren can not is the 4K 60p. And the Odyssey has been able to use normal SSD for some time now. As for 3G SDI having no data limit, I'm not sure what I can say about that.

And maybe my maths is bad but is 2K 240p really the same size as 4k 60p? Common sense has it at twice the date rate for me, a stream of information that Odyssey could not write too one SSD alone but needed to use two at the same time I thought.

I'm interested to hear that the inferno feels so solid as I've never held ether of them, this is important information to me but there seems to be a strangely combative atmosphere around these products and I'd rather not be involved. I just want to try and work out which one dose what I need best.
 
yadnom1973 said:
You have confused the inferno for their latest range which it is not,
Click to expand...

The Inferno is definitely their latest model. It was released in October.

As for 3G SDI having no data limit, I'm not sure what I can say about that.
Click to expand...

I never said it doesn't have a data limit, rather I said you do not have to conform to any video-standards or limitations - for example each flavour of HDMI is only able to output the specified colour spaces, resolutions and frame rates. Anything outside this very strict standards cannot be sent across HDMI. The data limit for 3G-SDI is roughly the same as HDMI 1.4 (~3Gbps), but HDMI 1.4 is only 24/25/30p at 4K, whereas 3G-SDI can handle 4K60p. It's not to do with the data rate, it's to do with what formats are allowed over the HDMI connection.

And maybe my maths is bad but is 2K 240p really the same size as 4k 60p? Common sense has it at twice the date rate for me, a stream of information that Odyssey could not write too one SSD alone but needed to use two at the same time I thought.
Click to expand...

4K = 2K x 4.

So when dropping down from 4K to 2K we use 1/4 of the data rate. We can then multiply the frame rate by 4 to find out the max frame rate you can do at the same data rate (with the codec being equal).

60p x 4 = 240p
So 4K 60p = 2K 240p

The Odyssey only uses two SSD's when recording 240p RAW or 4K 60p RAW; for ProRes recording, 240p and 4K 60p can be captured to a single SSD, same as the Inferno.

I'm interested to hear that the inferno feels so solid as I've never held ether of them, this is important information to me but there seems to be a strangely combative atmosphere around these products and I'd rather not be involved. I just want to try and work out which one dose what I need best.
Click to expand...

Not being combative at all! Once again, just trying to get the correct info for people who stumble into this thread.
 
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