4073a is a better value then the 416. Listen.

MattinSTL

MattinSTL

Sound Modulator
Okay guys... as I've said many times before. I only care about the truth. I don't care if the gear I bought loses or the gear you bought loses. Everybody can use their ears and if they're true to themselves they will draw their own conclusions anyway.

Many people have said it before, including me, that the 4073a is THE BEST BANG FOR THE BUCK SHOTGUN available. PERIOD.

This will prove it once again as you listen to the differences between the MKH416 and the AT4073a. You can clearly hear that the 416 has a strong advantage on off axis and rear rejection... but overall the sound is only slightly smoother sounding then the 4073a. As the distance from the mics increases THEY SOUND NEARLY THE SAME!

As you noticed in the ME66 VS 4073a thread there's a HUGE improvement for a mic that's only about $80 more! In this thread you'll wonder why you'd spend DOUBLE for a 416...

Click HERE to listen to the difference in these mics.

Listen to HOW LITTLE the difference is with a mic that's damn near TWICE the price!

So there you have it. If you were hesitating on a new mic because the choices seem daunting... don't waver about the obvious choice for this price-range. The 416 gives you just a little extra edge for times when every bit counts... the 4073a is a flat-out bargain that's too close to the 416 sound for comfort! (Makes me think the 416 was over-priced too!)  :P
 
Re: 4073a is a better value then the 416. Listen.

That was the same mic, right? ;D

Okay, well, that just saved me $500. How big of a difference is there likely going to be between my old AT835 and the AT4073? I'd assume there should be a significant difference between an electret condensor and a true condensor, but the guys at equipmentemporium say that at a distance of about 2' they sound almost the same. I think I'll probably get one anyway, just wondering (if you feel so inclined) to run that test with the AT835...

Fantastic work, really. And your opening line is my mantra: I just want the truth, it doesn't matter to me who the truth makes mad or whether it agrees with anyone's opinion, as long as it's the actual demonstratable verifiable truth!
 
Re: 4073a is a better value then the 416. Listen.

Barry... yeah I can't get over that. I'm going to be shooting with the 4073a and the 416 tomorrow and I'm definitely going to run the test again to be sure.

Each mic has a definite individual character and pattern in the axis portion... but when I boomed 'em overhead... side by side... they sound amazingly similar.

I seem to remember saying that the 4073a sounds a lot more like a 416 then the me66 does... I just didn't think a 4073a sounded THAT much like it!

I mean seriously... with what you've heard so far would you even hesitate to fork out the extra $80 for the 4073a? Isn't that really a rhetorical question? Are you beginning to hear why I keep saying what a bargain the 4073a really is?

All I can say tonight is wait another 24 hours and I'll follow this up with another comparison of those two mics... just to be sure. The only thing that makes me worry is that they sound so identical in the last portion of the test... I mean they sound IDENTICAL. I've heard the me66 so many times that it's obvious to me... but I never put the 4073a head to head with the 416 like this before. It's not what I expected.

Barry I'm sorry I don't have access to an 835b so I really can't speak for that mic... I don't even have ANY experience with one. I suspect that it would sound slightly warmer then the me66 but no where near the sound of the 4073a. If you look at any of the pro-sound boards it never gets mentioned by anybody... even the me66 is never mentioned by anybody. I'd love to do a comparison though. ;)
 
Re: 4073a is a better value then the 416. Listen.

Matt ! Thanks so much, you narrowed it down a bit here. The ladder of your tests(from the ones i heard) as i understand is in the pattern of me66>at4073 and mk416
( last two pretty much at the same level, although i do think senheiser sounds a bit warmer). But of course the difference of almost five hundred dollars makes the AT top the league. Now i did hear the tests of mkh416 vs Sanken CS 1 and as i remember the senheiser was a bit warmer again but the rejection of sanken was incredible. Sanken is at 800, mkh416 is at 1000 and the AT4073a is at 550.  One question and up front i appologize for my ignorance towards technical aspects of mics but on this page http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...ail&Q=&sku=68317&is=REG&si=spec#goto_itemInfo
it states that the at4073a with an Externally Polarized Capacitor Condenser is around 800 dollars, what are the benefits of that and are you sure you were not using this one for eight hundred bucks heh? Thanks again looking forward to some more tests!
 
Re: 4073a is a better value then the 416. Listen.

Yeah, about the 835... for $239 I figured how far wrong can you go, right? But it just keeps working, and it sounds pretty good, so I just never got off my lazy butt to replace it with a real pro mic. I should though.

The 4073 is very appealing. I just don't want to get it and then kick myself for not getting a 416 or a Sanken. The Sanken CS-1 is $300 more than the AT... is it worth it? If it sounds the same, and has a similar pickup pattern, but much better off-axis noise rejection, the answer would be H*** YES it's worth it. If I could salvage one take on one shoot without having to pause for a stupid airplane or train or whatever, that would be so worth it...

So, the question goes out again: you want to buy one shotgun, and the intended use is mid-level TV commercials and indie filmmaking. Already got wireless, already got decent lavalieres, already have an ENG shotgun. I'm looking for the one mic to get that will give me killer sound for dialogue from an overhead boom. Price is an object, but only from a pragmatic standpoint (i.e., why pay $1000 for the 416 if the 4073 sounds 99% identical?) So, the contenders seem to be: 4073, 416, CS-1 or CS-3. Any compelling, overwhelming reason to pick one of those over the others? If not, the 4073 wins by default just because of the extremely attractive price. I think I'm leaning towards the CS-1 because from what I've read, it performs extremely similar to the CS-3 and is almost half the price... but I've never heard a CS-1 or CS-3. Living out here in Vegas we don't have a B&H or EVS to go play at...
 
Re: 4073a is a better value then the 416. Listen.

just to clarify- the at products are connected to the yean and the Sens to euro .the real price in germany around 650 -690 euro for 416 and about 550-600 for the 4073 , and about 1100 for the sanken cs-3 (all not europian products have about 8% tax)
when i bought my last 416 3 years ago it cost me less then 650$
the 4073 is quet a bargen now, go for it -the difference can serv you in other places
another thing i really dont know how the AT making after 10 years in service
the privius 416 t that i sold was 20 years old and sounded like new .
i bought it in 91 by 500 and sold it 2001 by 500 (if we calculating the inflaition , i lost 120$:-)) so that not bad at all 12$ per year:-)
 
Re: 4073a is a better value then the 416. Listen.

Oleg... that's why I'm saying what a bargain the AT is. I understand currency relationships but the 416 has been $995 over here in the states forever. The me66 was $350 and now it's $450... so why didn't the 416 go up?

Barry... the 416 definitely has the edge on axis response... I think it's worth the difference for that alone. This thing has a polar pattern like a flashlight. I'm still going to do another test today because I can't believe how similar they sound (4073a and 416). I've heard a CS1 and it's NOT as warm as either the 4073a or 416. It's significantly thinner sounding BUT it probably does the "axis trick" even better then the 416... making it a great shotgun mic for interiors.

ONLY looking at it from a sound perspective I'd put it as CS1, 4073a, 416... for polar pattern only I'd probably go 4073a, 416, CS1... in order of least to best.

Warm... click "add to cart" and you'll see that the 4073a is $530. There is only one 4073a, 4073, AT4073a... all the same mic.
 
Re: 4073a is a better value then the 416. Listen.

[quote author=Matt in STL link=board=audio;num=1090624620;start=0#6 date=07/24/04 at 05:17:49]Oleg... that's why I'm saying what a bargain the AT is. I understand currency relationships but the 416 has been $995 over here in the states forever. The me66 was $350 and now it's $450... so why didn't the 416 go up?

internet - until now you didnt hve the abillity to buy online and see prices in other countries , so people took the price as axiom
if zenheiser were rising the price over the 1000 in the states , they were loosind most of the eng market.
and that was also had waves to their other models (mkh-60)
, the delivery from germany is only 50-60$ so do you think someone who can buy the mkh for 750-800 there was paying 1200 in us .i dont think so , the 100$ difference is olmost no saving for someone who run 15000$ sound kit.
other thing that probably senheiser giving now the 416 in much lower price to disterbutor then it was 3-4 years ago not to colaps against low yean (AT) and Sanken cs-1

the low budget marqet is different -peole who cant uffort 416 and AT dont have the choice , the delivery and worrenty issius are have a grate impact on the me-66 buyers -that why senheiser riced the price for that product with euro rise .
and since the roomor established this mike as the best mike for low budget they dont afraid to loose the marqet share .
the only anamy now they have is 897 which cost almost half .
 
Re: 4073a is a better value then the 416. Listen.

Hey Oleg why don't you hook me up with one of your German buddies? I'd like that overseas deal! ;D

Okay so here's the next day and I got to really use these mics today... I used 'em ALL day and here's some new clips. You'll hear that they alternate with the same clip... FIRST is always the 4073 and SECOND is always the 416.

At one point you can hear a tiny spider monkey fly overhead in a little hang-glider... see if you hear it. :D

Click HERE to listen to the latest comparison of the 4073 and 416.
 
Re: 4073a is a better value then the 416. Listen.

Barry-- If off-axis rejection is so king for these applications, why aren't you considering longer mics like the AT4071 and that sort of thing?

Just out of curiosity, if a tight-pattern is what you're looking for, isn't that the way to go?

Matt in STL -- another excellent hype-free comparison. Thanks much. If I wasn't a continent away I'd lend you my AT835 to hear how the $cheap-o$ would hang with the serious mics. :)
 
Re: 4073a is a better value then the 416. Listen.

Off-axis rejection isn't the primary consideration. Overall audio quality is first, flexibility in a variety of locations is secondary, and then another consideration would be how well it isolates the voice and avoids airplanes, etc. I don't like fighting the tight pickup pattern of long shotguns, if you stray out of the pattern the levels drop off so dramatically. I want it to record what I'm pointing at, in a nice wide swath for a solid warm signal, but to avoid things that are out of that pattern. Cardioid is fine, but I'm not a big fan of hypercardioid. So, looking for a general-purpose, extremely high-quality mic, and if it can truly reject airplanes, trains and trucks, that's a huge bonus.
 
Re: 4073a is a better value then the 416. Listen.

This monkey has gone to heaven. Matt thank you again for a great test i am at a state of 4073 acceptance right now. I would love to hear Sanken CS1 VS 4073 and Mkh416. But i did hear the mkh416 and Cs1 comparison and i can tell you that main difference was in the audio warmth of the Sennheiser versus great rejection by the Sanken. Still would be pretty interesting to hear AT vs Sanken.
Thank you much!
 
Re: 4073a is a better value then the 416. Listen.

If you want the most versatile mic with the most rejection then it would probably be the Sanken CS1. With that mic you're almost guaranteed a good performance in any kind of an environment INDOORS, but it's significantly LESS sensitive then the other mics and has a lot less reach for outdoor use... although I'm sure it will still work... just not as well. The other thing which has been mentioned by me and others is that the CS1 is much thinner sounding then the other two. For me the choice was tough because class leading off-axis rejection is valuable, but ultimately I MUST really like the SOUND of a mic before I'll buy it.

If I could have afforded a little more for the CS-3 then I could have had the best of both... sound and class leading rejection. I got a deal on the 416 so the price difference was enough to cover a graphite boom pole... and I took that over what may very well be the best mic of this lot... the CS3.

Next the Mkh416. This is still a really versatile mic with what I think is the best sound... not counting the CS3. The 416 will be usable indoors in a large or well-damped room... but in a somewhat live room it will lose out to a good hyper-cardioid... which is my normal "go to mic" for indoor use. The 416 still has an amazingly good off axis and rear rejection. I don't think it's THAT far off the Sankens... I just think it's measureable... kind of like the off axis and rear rejection difference between the 4073a and 416... It's not that much, but it IS there... and every bit counts in a professional application. I also happen to really LIKE the sound of the 416. With my crappy voice :-[ I think the 416 helps. It also helps with women and children as Oleg has said before. So the verdict is that while I LIKE the 416... I certainly wouldn't say it's a good value. In fact... after really putting it against the 4073a I'd say it's almost a poor value. Again for PROFESSIONAL applications I don't think you can put a price on getting an extra 10-15%... sometimes it can be very helpful and nobody questions a result when you're doing everything possible with top grade gear. (Okay that's a lie.)

Finally the At4073a... it's CLEARLY the value leader of all the shotguns. It has most of the warmth of the 416 and a fairly realistic and pleasing sound. In the tests I purposely added a cough and left in some breathing because the coughs peak the camera inputs and the breathing shows subtle detail. Also in the tests you can hear that the 4073a actually has a really nice off axis and rear rejection. It's very surprising for a mic at this price! THAT is the main purpose of a shotgun mic... You want it to primarily hear what it's pointed at and not much else... Hopefully it will sound good in the process, and the 4073a does. In the me66 VS 4073a tests you can hear that the '66 doesn't have NEAR the off axis OR rear rejection of the 4073a... and it sounds super thin at the same time.

VERDICT: I fully expected the 4073a to lose out to the 416 by a significant margin. In reality I'd say that the 416 only inches the 4073a into a reasonable second place finish. To be fair I wouldn't even include the me66 in a comparison of these mics on performance... it just happens to be in it on price. The obvious choice for an "all around" shotgun where cost is a factor and another mic will be an option for interiors is the At4073a.

As a side note... NO shotgun eliminates the problems with airplanes, trains, trucks, ac units and other sound which can FILL an area. Those sounds get everywhere and they're LOUD and that means that one way or another they're going to bounce into that mic's pattern. The point of the off axis and rear rejection of shotguns is to CONTROL the introduction of unwanted NORMAL sounds on a shoot... they can't ELIMINATE really strong sounds such as those. "Quiet on the set!" :-X

Oh yeah... one more thing. The reason to avoid LONG shotguns is because they don't usually sound anywhere near as natural as short guns. For high booming in a hard to control area they may be the only choice... but I'd be surprised if very many people use those on miniDV productions.
 
Re: 4073a is a better value then the 416. Listen.

matt what do you call thin- i call flat :-)
the cs-3 e (and cs-1)much more like neumann 81 then 416 , after you record the sound you can change it every way you like ,most of us think that the extra low end is much flattering , sometimes it make the voice sounds better but sometimes it very dangerous overdos .
the cs-1 is a very nice mike , it doesnt thin it just dont boost the lows
 
Re: 4073a is a better value then the 416. Listen.

C'mon Oleg... you know I love you and I'm the amature here and YOU'RE the professional! ::)

BUT... the Sanken CS-3 is flat... and by flat I mean it's frequency response is +/- 1db from 65 hz to 5 Khz... Me like.

The Sanken CS-1 drops 5 db from 5 Khz to 65 hz... there's a wide flat swath between 300 hz and 4 Khz but it steadily falls off from 200 hz on down. I think that's part of the reason why the CS-1 has such good off axis and rear rejection of lower frequencies vs many other mics... it's lower frequencies are heading out anyway. I can believe that this frequency response may be very usable in post... but I wouldn't call it flat.

The Sennheiser Mkh416 is dead flat from 140 hz to 3.5 Khz and it's +/- 1db from about 80 hz to 4.5 Khz... so I'd still call it a flat mic. Sure it's no CS-3... but I'd put those two in the same category at least.

I think the CS-1 is a nice mic... I like 'em and I want one! Just ask Dan L. I propositioned him already for his and I'll buy one eventually. It's just that within the company of THESE mics I think it sounds... er... um... "flat".

If it wasn't for the 4 db hump between 3.5 Khz and 5.5 Khz the 4073a would actually have the flattest on axis response of the lot. The At4073a is +/- 1 db from 40 Hz to 3.5 Khz... and again without the hump it would have held that to 8 Khz.
 
Re: 4073a is a better value then the 416. Listen.

you probably right if the chart doesnt lie :-) , i worked with this one not enouth , and it was alwais with  mail barriton voices , check the cmc541(641) you would suprise to want something else instead :-)
 
Re: 4073a is a better value then the 416. Listen.

matt if i have to look every time to the data **** , then even the azden would be flat :-)
take the mike ,put it trew nice preamp (not sd since you would have to cut lows -thos 2 dont like each other and cs-1 is overloading the sd preamp(they blayming each other but it really doesnt metter ,the cub-1 have the same problem ). put good headphones (not the sony ) then lissen , all of them would sound flat , some would boost flat and some would be thin flat andall of them would be flat on the paper :-)
 
Re: 4073a is a better value then the 416. Listen.

In my opinion the 416 sounds much better than the 4073a. Surprises me that so many people cannot hear the difference especially since I am half deaf from too many concerts when I was a teenager :)
 
Re: 4073a is a better value then the 416. Listen.

The mkh416 definitely sounds a bit warmer and i think Matt has stated that already... But considering the low contrast in the pick up pattern and high contrast in price the AT wins the race for people on a budget. I think that is what this thread states pretty much...
 
Re: 4073a is a better value then the 416. Listen.

Oleg... I really have a lot of respect for you... so I hope my comments don't come across as being disrespectful. I've met a lot of dorks that only quote specs with no real-world experience. I'm not one of those guys.

I've experimented with a lot of stuff though and what we all hear makes sense considering what the charts say... the CS-1 has the best off axis rejection including low frequencies... and to my ears it sounds thin or flat. The chart shows that frequency response gradually falls off below 200 hz. Wouldn't that support what I'm hearing?

The CS-3 sounds super-full to my ears... much like the 416 but even warmer still... then you look at the chart and it looks like it should work out that way.

The 4073a sounds just a little less warm then the 416 and it's frequency response chart implies that it will. The 4073a also has a little mid-treble harsh spike that I can hear with my ears and the chart reflects that also.

The me66 chart says that it's response begins dropping as high as 550 hz and steadily falls off until it's 8 db down at 50 hz... when you listen to it's sound doesn't that seem about right?

I just bought the 416... and if ANYBODY would be biased towards it that would be me. Sure I think it's the best sounding shotgun mic of the ones available to me... and I LOVE it's sound and think it's warm and all that. Also I should add that the rejection patterns are comparable, but the 416 is clearly the winner in that department also.

All I wanted to show here is whatever panned out. I originally intended to show off the capabilities of my new 416... I haven't owned a 4073a since last winter. The one you're hearing is a friend's mic. I was simply surprised at how well the 4073a holds it's own against a mic that's basically twice the price.

I'm not going to sell my 416 and I'll continue to love it and I'd still buy one after hearing all this... but if I was on a tight budget I'd be giddy at how well the 4073a does in comparison.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top