4 Channel Mixer and Recorder?

rdblank said:
The shoots are going to be shot on 1 or 2 7D's and a HPX170. I can see one major flaw with the 2 MixPre systems. Having to plug the headphones in and out of the 2 for monitoring purposes.
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Actually you could connect the tape out of the 2nd mixpre to the tape return of the 1st one. Plug your headphones in the 1st mixpre and with the front switch you can monitor either the 1st mixpre ("tape") or the 2nd ("rtn").

But considering your budget I'd go with a 442 and Tascam DR-680 or Edirol R44 (Preferably the 680 as it would allow you to have a stereo mix as well as 4 ISO tracks). The 442 can easily be found used under $2000 (there's one on sale right now at $1300, very good deal! here's the link: http://jwsound.net/SMF/index.php?topic=7887.0).

Alexis
 
Having tested many expensive preamps, I vote for the Tascam 680. If you really don't like the sound, which IMHO is a pretty low chance, you can add the pres later.
For what you would pay for a 442, you could buy two fine microphones. Or another 680. Microphones are always a better investment than recorders.
If you really don't like the pres, get a front end with a rock solid clock, like the Grace Lunatec or an RME FF400, and get the 680 clocked. The SDs are fine machines, but slightly pricey sound vs price.
 
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Per your guys' recommendations I'm trying to track down a 442 and a DR-680. Are these going to be incredibly difficult for someone with near 0 knowledge of recording to setup and operate? Also what am I going to need to get the 4 iso channels from the 442 to the DR-680?
 
I'm not sure what the out's on the 442 are, but the DR680 has 4x XLR ins, and 2x TRS ins. I have 2 TRS to XLR adapters so I can have a total of 6 x XLR inputs. The 420 (guessing) probably has XLR outs, so 4 short XLR cables would do the trick. There are guys that make custom cables for reasonable prices, that have angled XLR cables that take up less room so you cah fit it all in a bag more elegantly.

There's a link to a guy on this taperssection post: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=82885.msg1100713#msg1100713
 
rdblank said:
Per your guys' recommendations I'm trying to track down a 442 and a DR-680. Are these going to be incredibly difficult for someone with near 0 knowledge of recording to setup and operate? Also what am I going to need to get the 4 iso channels from the 442 to the DR-680?
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The direct outs are on balanced TA3 male connectors and can be set to either mic or line level. Looking at the Tascam manual (haven't used one myself) it has 4 inputs on XLR/TRS combo jacks and 2 on TRS jack, all switch selectable to either mic or line level. So what you need to connect them togther are 4 cables with a TA3F on one end and your choice of XLR-M or TRS on the other ... here's one example of such as cable http://www.trewaudio.ca/store/product.php?productid=193&cat=25&page=1 Since the Tascam is a 6-channel recorder, it looks like you could also take the main output from the 442 into the Tascam's inputs 5 & 6 with a couple of XLRF to TRS patch cables and record the stereo mix along side the iso channels.
 
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Actually the direct outs on the 442 are on TA3 connectors, which means you're going to need TA3 female to XLR male cables. You can purchase them already made (for example here: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/293002-REG/Sound_Devices_XL_2_XL2_TA3_F_to_XLR.html since it's a set of 2 you're going to need 2 of these), have them built by your local sudio shop (might or might not be cheaper) or make them yourself if you're skilled with a soldering iron (much cheaper).

As for ease of operation, read through all the manuals a few times, practice, go back to the manuals if there's something you're missing and you should be fine.

Edit: Looks like Steve beat me to it! The cables I linked to are slightly cheaper though.
 
Cant believe some people are advising 2x MixPres as a solution, that is crazy.

Also, your buying a 442. Your spending 1000+ on preamps. Are you crazy? Buy a r44 and have it modded. The 442 is justifiable if you will be using it for ENG, Drama mixing to cam etc.. Not if your using it solely as a preamp.

Id buy a modded 4trk recorder and hire a mixer for a day. If you like the sound of the mixer/4trk purchase a mixer. If not don't bother.

I think people are forgetting what the sole purpose for a mixer is these days.
 
sjcampbell said:
Cant believe some people are advising 2x MixPres as a solution, that is crazy.

Also, your buying a 442. Your spending 1000+ on preamps. Are you crazy? Buy a r44 and have it modded. The 442 is justifiable if you will be using it for ENG, Drama mixing to cam etc.. Not if your using it solely as a preamp.

Id buy a modded 4trk recorder and hire a mixer for a day. If you like the sound of the mixer/4trk purchase a mixer. If not don't bother.

I think people are forgetting what the sole purpose for a mixer is these days.
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No one is forgetting the purpose of a mixer and it provides more than just preamps. True, going wiih an SD gives you superb pre's but that's not the only reason to go with a mixer. There's also the quality of the limiters, the existence of limiters on both the inputs and outputs, M/S matrixing, very accurate metering, high quality high-pass filtering, readily accessable channel faders, multiple monitoring options, etc
 
The OP has a 3,000.00 budget. That allows for a nice recorder (DR-680 trounces the R-44 in price and quality, and both can be modded) and Mixer (4 channel SD is perfect), which is always a better option in professional sound capture for video. It's not good method IMO to turn up/down the recording level as is needed in dialogue recording. A mixer is the right tool for the job. If one is just recording a show where you set it and leave it alone for the most part, no mixer really needed. For the dynamic nature of dialogue, you need a mixer with great, fast, optical limiters (not the so so ones in these recorders).
 
Steve House said:
There's also the quality of the limiters, the existence of limiters on both the inputs and outputs, M/S matrixing, very accurate metering, high quality high-pass filtering, readily accessable channel faders, multiple monitoring options, etc
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None of which are available when recording pre fades to a 4 track. Well expect if you pan 2,3,4 hard right and have one channel using the limiter meters etc...
 
Would it be easier if I say dropped a lav off and only went with a 3 mic setup? Say a SD 302 and a Zoom H4N? I'm thinking that may be the way to go and then spend the extra money on a nice zeppelin setup. But again, I dont know what I'm doing (I'm trying though) and am not sure if that setup is even a possibility.
 
NO H4N! Consumer toy for bedroom musicians! Menu driven! Stay away! My opinion of course... You want something that will give you 24bit / 48 k individual mono files, with an XLR input for each track.
 
Really the 680 is a 6 track with a s/pdif input for the other two. And yes I would still recommend it because it's got better pres than the R-44, a 4 track, and is cheaper. It's not a large unit, so the extra tracks don't take up much space, and I have found that the future in uncertain, and those extra tracks may just come in handy if someone wants to record a panel of 6 people, or of you want to record live music for a band gig - 2 board feeds, stereo mic for ambiance, 2 spot mics on kick & bass. Plus with an extra S/pdif mixer you can indeed record 2 more tracks. Also the Tascam can, while recording 2, 4, or 6 tracks, make a stereo mix (using individual level and pan for each track) down to track 7-8. But even if you don't ever want to do any of that, the 680 sounds better and is cheaper than the r-44. I went back and forth between the R-44 and the DR-680 for a long time, and to my satisfaction the 680 is superior. 800.00 bones at B&H http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/673541-REG/Tascam_DR_680_DR_680_8_Track_Portable_Field.html

In my opinion the H4N is underkill. And there is no other decent 4 track recorders suitable for video work between the H4N and the R-44/DR-680. So the 680 seems right on the money to me.
 
Thanks Chadfish, you really are helping out a lot.
My (hopefully) last question is.. Do you think I should get the Sound Devices 302 or try to find the 442.
Again, I really have NO CLUE on any of this stuff. I'm a post guy just trying to figure it out. So looking at a specs sheet means absolutely nothing to me.
Could the 302 even handle 3 iso tracks? And if so, would they be post fade? (Which I believe means a level adjustment, but could be completely wrong)
 
rdblank said:
Thanks Chadfish, you really are helping out a lot.
My (hopefully) last question is.. Do you think I should get the Sound Devices 302 or try to find the 442.
Again, I really have NO CLUE on any of this stuff. I'm a post guy just trying to figure it out. So looking at a specs sheet means absolutely nothing to me.
Could the 302 even handle 3 iso tracks? And if so, would they be post fade? (Which I believe means a level adjustment, but could be completely wrong)
Click to expand...

Can't say... I only have a MixPre = 2 channels. I have no idea on the price of all the other ones. If you really need 4 channels get 4 channels. It is a bit more cumbersome to do 2 MixPres, but I think if they are in a bag, secured, you can turn the knobs just fine, and monitor using the 680. Of course if you had a 4 channel SD mixer it would be better, but I suspect that will be a lot of money. Do some research on pricing. Decide what you need.

Is this just a one off job for you? Or do you plan on doing more audio in the future?
 
This is for one job at the moment, but more coming in the near future. But the setup is going to be the same. Right now I have 2 Senn Me66 and a G2 Lav but if need be, getting a G3 Lav as well. All I'm using it for are short movies and scripted TV pilots. The less I can get away with the better.
 
The G3 is great kit for the money. Always a useful tool! But if you don't need wireless on some lavs, there are the new Rode Lavs & PinMics for 250.00. With their 30.00 XLR adapter you can run them on phantom power. I say set it up if possible so you have 4 tracks done the same way if you need to record 4 people. Bare bones with 4 laved pope sitting, you can get away with 4 lavs and the DR-680. With proper preparation you won't have to adjust the levels much after you get going. I'm not sure what's going on with your "actors". A mixer is better, but I often don't use one with my lav jobs. A mixer is best though. Maybe there's a good mixer more reasonably priced than the SD stuff. 3,000.00 can go a long way depending on how you spread it around. It all depends on what the talent is doing. For me the multi track recorder is key, as you know being a post audio guy, to get everyone on separate tracks cleanly.
 
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