4-cam comparison -- initial response

Profit is Not a Dirty Word

Profit is Not a Dirty Word

I have been reading complaints of profitability with some amusement. If I have a company developing revolutionary technology, I believe I can build in a nice profit without guilt. These companies are not manufacturing cameras and storage devices as a hobby.

"Fair" cost is always a function of whether you happen to be buying or selling.

Do those contemplating acquiring these cameras plan to shoot video for clients and NOT CHARGE THEM?
 
Fair cost vs smart business

Fair cost vs smart business

westerndirector said:
I have been reading complaints of profitability with some amusement. If I have a company developing revolutionary technology, I believe I can build in a nice profit without guilt. These companies are not manufacturing cameras and storage devices as a hobby.

"Fair" cost is always a function of whether you happen to be buying or selling.

Do those contemplating acquiring these cameras plan to shoot video for clients and NOT CHARGE THEM?
Click to expand...

You are obviously amused by strange things. Do you work for the government? (Just kidding.) You say that manufaturing this camera is no hobby for Panasonic. That's true. I could care less is Panasonic made oil company type profits. What I am concerned with as I've said before is being stuck with a format (P2) that is orphaned in a year or 2 because Panasonic doesn't sell enough P2 devices (after the initial rush) to sustain the line.

Believe me when I say Panasonic will drop P2 like the proverbial sizzling potato (strictly as a business decision) if they don't meet their goal of xxxxx units sold per year. They have done it before, surrendering to Sony in the early ENG camcorder market after a very short fight. That surrender cost TV stations tons of money TWICE. Once because their investment in Panasonic was wasted and once to give that NFG equipment to charity and invest a second time in Sony.

Making a profit should not be the only goal of a business. Henry Ford made a huge profit on the model T when he first came out with it. It sold for $800 or so. Then that dumb business guy lowered the price to $250 over night. His profit per unit plummited. As we all know however, his overall profit took a pogo stick and jumped to the moon. AND the Model T line lasted over 20 years!!! Not the camera business I know but the principals are the same.

If the AG HVX200 lives up to it's specs it will be a camera that will sell to Pros who can justify the cost because it is a good tool of the trade. Pros have to have good tools. But I don't think Panasonic came out with a $5500 HD camera just to sell to the top level of shooters in the world. Lets face it, you take all the Pro shooters who can easily justify the cost of P2, cut out the ones who are not in the HD market now, cut out the ones who are not ready to invest in new equipment (strictly a business decision) cut out the Canon brand freaks and JVC brand freaks etc. and what you have is a realatively small market.

Now if that market won't sustain the line ( the $100,000 version doesn't need massive sales) who will make it worth the effort for Panasonic? The next level down, prosumers, and the high end (read rich) hobbiest. It is those 2 groups that will make or break this camera. It is those 2 groups that will have to justify a recording device (P2) that costs $150 per minute recorded for HD.

Wake up and smell the reality. The guys one this forum are usually the upper level. How many are we? We're preaching to the choir here. Panasonic isn't woroed about us. But we all need to be worried about the costs of recording.
 
I don't need a condescending lecture, pal. Companies are into manufacturing cameras to make a profit. Nobody is making you buy the product. I plan to buy several because I think they represent significant value for the money. You don't see that value. Fair enough. I have been around this world quite a while and I recognize good value for the money when I see it.
 
westerndirector said:
I don't need a condescending lecture, pal. Companies are into manufacturing cameras to make a profit. Nobody is making you buy the product. I plan to buy several because I think they represent significant value for the money. You don't see that value. Fair enough. I have been around this world quite a while and I recognize good value for the money when I see it.
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My great grandfather has been around this world quite a while too. He probably thinks things through as deeply as you do. (Despite the Alsheimers) As for condesending, you sound like you can afford to be a closed minded self rightious snob who sees the words but misses all the points. Now if you had an intelligent point, I'd take you seriously and might feel bad for coming across as condesending.
 
Captin' -- the pressure's rising!

Captin' -- the pressure's rising!

A few grumpy patrons can go a long way towards making a site less interesting and fun to brouse.

I would think that coming across posts with tone like the previous exchange would be discouraging the people that run this site. I for one, love what happens here for the most part, and want this site to continue!

I know everyone gets mad. But please, before you actually post stuff like,

"Wake up and smell the reality..."

or "I don't need a condescending lecture, pal."

...please find another outlet for your annoyance, so the rest of us don't have to read it!

Thanks,

Stephen Gagne
 
Well said, Stephen -- let's please inject some more civility into the discussions.

Another thing to consider is: if you buy your cards now, it really doesn't matter what happens in the future. You will have a perpetually viable system that will remain as functional 10 years from now as it is today. Once you buy two cards, you don't technically *need* any more. As long as there's a firewire port or a PCMCIA slot or a USB2 port somewhere in the future, the HVX will continue to function. If Panasonic never sold another P2 card, would that mean that your camera and its two cards stop working? It's not like tape, where if the manufacturer stops making tape you're hosed. Instead the cards will remain reusable with up to 30,000 insertions. It's a self-contained system.

Obviously we would all like to benefit from further advances in technology, larger/cheaper cards, CinePorters, etc. And Panasonic has made a signficant bet on P2 acceptance, they've really laid a lot on the line. But -- again, even if another card were never sold, even if you never bought another P2 product, the camera and cards you have now (for those who have it now) will continue to be a functional high-def and standard-def self-contained acquisition system.
 
These are all good points but there is some validity in his statements. Panasonic did piss off serveral major companies when they pulled the M2 stunt. It's actually taken them a while to recover. I'm not sure that it means the same thing will happen to P2 but for some due to high price of P2 cards it might not be worth the risk.

The other valid point is the price point of the camera. Panasonic was targeting indie film makers more than news groups. Even their sales staff touts this as the next big indie film making tool. Well when the cost of the media for the camera is so high (8 gig card for example) it starts to move the camera off target. Sure 8gig cards will come down but in that case why didn't they just put all these snazzy features into an HD camera that records to tape (HDV) and keep the P2 move in their pocket until next year whent he media would have been more reasonable?

I'm no market share wizard, but I seriously think that after the success of the DVX they would sell way more of these cameras with HDV based recording to the indie film makers of the world than P2. At least this year. However, in a year - year in a half when P2 drops by half (so we hope) they could release a new model which uses it.

Now my disclaimer: I'm really starting to like the P2 workflow the more I read about it and I'm definately on the list to get one of these but If I were running the show at Panasonic my product development timeline would be different. HVX (HDV) for 2006, HVX (P2) for 2007. This way you are not trying to sell your market on why it's ok to spend the same price of the camera in recording media.
 
dvxStephen said:
A few grumpy patrons can go a long way towards making a site less interesting and fun to brouse.

I would think that coming across posts with tone like the previous exchange would be discouraging the people that run this site. I for one, love what happens here for the most part, and want this site to continue!

I know everyone gets mad. But please, before you actually post stuff like,

"Wake up and smell the reality..."

or "I don't need a condescending lecture, pal."

...please find another outlet for your annoyance, so the rest of us don't have to read it!





I appologize for lowering myself to the "I don't need a condescending lecture, pal." level.

I really have hopes for the P2 technology and the HVX200.

Barry Green has repeatedly talked about the practicality of having a couple of P2 cards to technically satisfy your recording needs. (Once you buy two cards, you don't technically *need* any more. As long as there's a firewire port or a PCMCIA slot or a USB2 port somewhere in the future, the HVX will continue to function.)

My point has been and continues to be that I and a great many people I know shoot in jungles on mountain tops on ski slopes and chasing cops over fences. This type of shooting does not lend itself to PCMCIA, USB2 or firewire ports. Without those things handy, 2 cards would just not be enough to do what the job requires. I regularly have days where you bring as many spare batteries as possible and shoot on the run dawn till dawn with just enough time to switch those batteries without missing a shot. I would never start such a day with just 2 hours worth of tape. 30 4GB cards ($18,000) would be 2 hours recording at 1080i. Go to 720p 24 and you could get by with 10 cards. (10 min per) That's still about $6,000. I realize that to rich guys such as the "I don't need a condescending lecture pal" guy who can afford many of these cameras anytime he wants, $6,000 or even $18,000 is just a drop in the bucket. But that's not the case with everyone.

You can say to me, "Stop belly-aching. You're out of luck! Buy another camera!" That might ultimately be the solution. But I hate to give in and count myself out of such a promising technology.

And if I give up on the format how many others might for the same reasons? The main point is that the more Panasonic hears about this issue, the better the chance that they might come up with a solution.

If you guys only want to talk about the quality of this camera in this forum so be it. BUT ALL THE QUALITY IN THE WORLD DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU CAN'T USE IT.

Sorry, enough pontificating. :undecided I'll let myself out now.
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I don't think Panasonic has doged this issue at all, They have said basiclly, this is what we have now, greter capacity will come. In the mean time you may want to consider recording to a HD like the firestore or the cine porter.
 
FullRez said:
However, in a year - year in a half when P2 drops by half (so we hope) they could release a new model which uses it.

HVX (HDV) for 2006, HVX (P2) for 2007. This way you are not trying to sell your market on why it's ok to spend the same price of the camera in recording media.
Click to expand...

I believe these statements are contradicting each other. How will the P2 price ever drop if there are not enough products that are using this technology and more so a mid-end, relatively high sales product like the HVX that can produce enough demand for P2 cards so that we can experience a drop in price?
I don't think that the high-end SD card price tag alone, is driving the prices on P2 cards, after all only Panasonic manufactures them.
 
HDV, you got to be kidding after all the posts that BArry has written on P2? Someone gives you a revolutionary tapeless workflow and you want tape? The recording media is re-useable.

Reminds me of all the stuff that was written about the dvx when it first came out , especially about how "plasticky" it felt! Gee how can you have trashed a camera based on how it "feels" and not on what type of picture it makes? In 18 months time people will only be asking on here what size cards to get and how many to get. Likewise for editing systems.
 
$1500 80 gig p2 card replacement? hvx200(mini varicam)

$1500 80 gig p2 card replacement? hvx200(mini varicam)

Okay a little breakdown about how I feel about the hvx200.

1. I think I am in love. One year ago I had an idea for a movie and I began writing the script. I realized it would cost too much to shoot on film, crap. Cheap if shot on mini dv but theatrical release wouldn't happen, crap. Now Very Very doable, yes.

2. Indies buy the hvx200! Indies don't buy P2 cards! P2 is a great idea like DVD players all digital no tape. When DVD players first came out $2,500 now $25 bucks on black Friday. Basically wait or rent if you want to walk and chew gum, oh I mean if you have to run and gun. Prices will fall WAIT!

3. There are alternatives. You can buy a 12" powerbook from apple for $1,500 that has 80 gig harddrive and it happens to be a laptop. You can transfer directly to final cut pro. Someone even posted in 720/24p mode it takes less space. I am not comparing this setup directly to P2 but to Cineporter and others. This setup can really be your editing station. "But it's only a 12" screen," said the unsure indie. You can go out to a 23" apple monitor so take that.

4. News Hunter/Gatherer/Shooter. Umm yeah, this cam is not for you. This is the miniVari man! Show of Smillies (like show of hands never mind), how many people run and gun with a varicam. Even Panasonic said it right on there site "For the filmmaker it's a HD breakthrough." This cam really is for filmmakers, corporate video shooters, music video shoots, etc. Basically anywhere you don't really move the camera a whole lot, oh kind of like all the stuff you do with a varicam.

5. Back that thang up! Okay the biggie how to back it up. You could transfer to small hardrives $70 bucks goes a long way nowadays. Also Iomega has a not so bad solution that ole rev drive thing. 35gb hardrives for $60. Expensive? Nope, again this is the miniVari and dvcpro tapes are about $70 bucks for 35 minutes so hah again! Back it up, label it, and put it away like mini dv tapes.

6. Competition? Oh you mean a camera that does variable frame rates, multiple formats, Hd, and under 6 grand. Nuff said homies. But the hdv's are Amazing for the News Shooters that actually pick quantity over quality. I meant that in a very kind way as I might buy a Sony and let my job get 2 hvx200's

7. With all that said this is just my opinion coming from a rather average educational access TV shooter moving to Cali to make movies (I am really good with final cut pro thou).

So there it is from the heart. Now you can finally make a feature film and keep your girlfriend. Peace
 
Yo anyone know if I can capture 720/24p live from the hvx to a 867 mhz powerbook g4 laptop 640mb. After everyone says no what is minimum recomended. Only asking cause girlfriend already has one.
 
Nik Manning said:
Only asking cause girlfriend already has one.
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But...Girlfriends could read P2 cards? No! Well just dump them! LOL...:grin:
The last Powerbook G4 oughta work fine I've read here and there, but nobody yet tried to work with it, evr'ybody want to buy a lot of P2 cards, maybe...to dump them hot babies? LOL :grin:
You can try to do a test with the laptop, when you buy the Hvx200, if you not order the camera from the web.
Hard disk must be very fast, that's the secret, bro :)
 
quote:
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My point has been and continues to be that I and a great many people I know shoot in jungles on mountain tops on ski slopes and chasing cops over fences.
...................................

I think a good thing to remember is that this is transition to P2 is gonna be easier for people used to film, and not video. That's always been (in my opinion) the niche Panasonic was going for, and I feel that they rightfully dominate that market. For indie film people who want to shoot indie HD (and before DV), Panasonic has been and looks like it will be THE company to be for the near future.

Also, one of the things I try to do when writing scripts, is to think like a producer, since my budget is limited. I use the resources I have around me and try to produce the best product I have, pushing those resources to their limits.

In a way, we are all limited by our camera technology, so we should understand our limits and work around them. With creativity and imagination, I believe that nothing in this world can stop me, and hopefully you should too.

BUT, there are still lots of options. Renting prices of p2 cards should be pretty low for those heavy days when you know you'll need a lot of footage.

Also, I don't think anyone here's trying to preach that there's only one camera that's right for everybody, maybe people are just insecure about their decision if someone else attacks it. It is a scary decision after all and I think everyone's stressed about spending this much money on something, as they should be.

I hope to do music videos, commercials, and short films, so for me, I have no doubt that the Panasonic is the way to go. If I was in your situation and hopping all over jungles and deserts, the yeah, I might consider a tape based HDV camera.


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Sorry, enough pontificating, I'll let myself out now.
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no reason to do that, last time I checked there wasn't a good discussion board for Z1 users anyways, haha, so I guess you're stuck with us. I'm sure everyone's happy to have people of different opinions here!
 
jazzx said:
I believe these statements are contradicting each other. How will the P2 price ever drop if there are not enough products that are using this technology and more so a mid-end, relatively high sales product like the HVX that can produce enough demand for P2 cards so that we can experience a drop in price?
I don't think that the high-end SD card price tag alone, is driving the prices on P2 cards, after all only Panasonic manufactures them.
Click to expand...


To some degree you are right but the high cost of these cards has nothing to do with demand. Obviously they can't even make enough to keep up with the current demand to begin with. The little tiny items that go into the P2 cards are what cost money. Even a decent sandisk III compact flash card cost $109.00 per Gigabyte. These are used in everything from PDA's to Digital SLR's. THere is a huge market for these but they still demand a high price. Put 4 of those in a bigger box with some raid technology, etc. You can see where the 600+ price is coming from and that is not even what is inside of the P2.

As the cost of media declines the P2 cards will decline. Sure Panasonic might shave off a few pennies by buying 100x the amount of materials than they currently are becuase demand increases even more but that will be a small percentage in price change. Perhaps they can sell them at a loss to help move HVX units. Sony and Microsoft both take a loss on their video game consoles to move other related products. Who knows.

As far as my HDV comment earlier, let me clear that up. I don't want HDV. If I did I'd have already bought a Sony, Canon or JVC model camera. I was strictly stating that from a business and marketing stand point I would have released an intermediate camera to use it until P2 media could be produced at a better price. It's already been stated by more then enough people that it's obvious this camera is not marketed at ENG and other TV Media outlets. If it is truly targeted at Indie film makers, then sales will suffer because Panasonic is not marketing this camera to the deep pockets. Guess us Indie guys can rent P2 but that definately won't drive P2 prices down like it would if we were all buying a hand full of them.
 
Nik Manning said:
Yo anyone know if I can capture 720/24p live from the hvx to a 867 mhz powerbook g4 laptop 640mb. After everyone says no what is minimum recomended. Only asking cause girlfriend already has one.
Click to expand...
Depends on what version of FCP you're running. If you're running FCP4.5, maybe. If you're running FCP5, they say that no, you should have 1ghz and 1gb. But I don't know what the minimum specs were for FCP4.5; I'm pretty sure they recommend 1ghz. Your 867 might be fast enough for 720p, I don't know.
 
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