4-cam comparison -- initial response

[Barry_Green]

However the DVX was 2/3 - 1 stop slower and the field of view is not as wide.

I'll assume you meant to say the HVX was 1 stop slower? In 4:3 the field of view may not be as wide, but in 16:9 the HVX field of view is notably wider than the DVX/squeeze.

In a sense this gave the advantage to the DVX for 4:3 miniDV shooting.

In terms of sensitivity and 4:3 FOV, that's probably true.

Noise looked comparable but I didn't spend enough time on it.

Agreed.

At first it looked like the HVx was noisier, but I think that was just settings.

On comparable settings I think they're very similar.

It made me want to get a wide angle adapter for 4:3 SD shooting.

In 4:3 the field of view on the HVX is narrower than it is in 16:9, and I frequently used a w.a. on the DVX, so yes it might come in handy for 4:3 on the HVX.

Offhand it looked that 16:9 was probably much better with the HVX which also makes sense - many more pixels making the image.

Completely agreed.

 

[skyonic]

Nonsense? I'm comparing a 4GB storage device against a 4GB storage device. How is that nonsense?

It matters not what the things are made of. .

really thats like comparing a ferrari to K-car saying hey they are both cars they should cost the same...

its REALLY REALLY expensive to build one large memory modual because of the amount silcone used versus two smaller ones..

hence why computer memory is cheaper if you buy two 512 dimms instead of one 1gig, why two 2gig compact flash cards are cheaper then one 4gig compact flash, its why one 16 gig sd card costs more then 16 1 gig sd cards...so on and so on...

thats why your comparison is nonsense...

 

[Barry_Green]

No, your comparison is "nonsense." The P2 card is a 4GB device. That's what it is, regardless of how it's made. It is a single contiguous 4GB device. If you want to compare underlying component costs, you might as well say that a house is overpriced because it's made out of wood, which comes from trees, which are free, so houses should be free, right? Shall we compare the cost of a 300GB hard disk against a stack of 30,000 1.4mb floppy disks, simply because the floppy disks are cheaper and being given away? They're not the same thing!

In fact, I could take your Ferrari and K-car analogy as well. The P2 card is the Ferrari -- it transfers at 80 megabytes per second. The CF card is the K-car; it transfers at maybe 20 megabytes per second. Yet they cost the same, or within about 10% of each other. Therein proving the point.

its why one 16 gig sd card costs more then 16 1 gig sd cards...so on and so on...

But are we comparing 16 products against one? How do I cram 16 individual SD cards into a P2 slot and make anything useful happen with that?

Or -- if you want to stick to your notion of a comparison, can you please point me to any memory product (SD, compactflash, memorystick, whatever) that runs at 80 megabytes per second minimum sustained transfer rate? And that costs less, in 4GB's worth of quantity, than a single 4GB P2 card? Perhaps then we'll at least have the beginning of a basis of comparison, even if it would be pieces/parts instead of a finished product, because then you'd still have to find some way to mishmash those pieces together into something that delivers 4GB of continuous space before you'd have an equivalent product.

A 4GB P2 card is a device that stores 4GB. A 4GB compactflash card is a device that can store 4GB. That is the only comparison that makes sense, anything else is distraction and obfuscation.

 

[mmm]

I think skyonic's point is that there seems to be a big mark-up over the price of the components.

Of course, you would expect some mark-up for profits, R&D, the fact that they select only top quality cards.

 

[Barry_Green]

But -- there's a big markup in a house, too. You can't live in a bunch of sticks, they have to be assembled, and that costs labor and skill and an architect and permits and plumbing and HVAC and insurance and all sorts of stuff.

What relevance is it what the components cost? You're not buying components. You're buying a finished product that does a job.

How much does the raw ore cost that's used to make a hammer? 3 cents? But you can't buy a 3-cent hammer because someone has to mine the ore and smelt it and cast the hammer and package it and ship it and sell it. What you buy is a hammer, and it doesn't really matter what went into making it.

So I'm talking about an end product. You can buy a single device that records 4GB. Who cares what it's made out of? The fact is that it's a 4GB device, and it's 4x faster than any other 4GB device, and it costs the same as that 4GB device. I fail to see any relevance to any other comparison -- compare an apple against an apple. Compare a 4GB solid-state recording device against another 4GB solid-state recording device. And when you do, compare them at comparable speeds too. You can find an 8GB compactflash card at $800, but that doesn't make it comparable to an 8GB P2 card because the 8GB P2 card is approximately 12x faster.

 

[Ralph Oshiro]

I did a noise comparison shot between an HVX/DV and a DVX100B. I'd say they're very comparable, with the HVX being perhaps a couple percentage points less noisy, or it's just a different perception because the HVX noise has a different texture to it.

Barry, when you say they're "comparable" is that at the magic "-5 detail" setting on the HVX? Given my historic aversion to DVX-level chroma noise, do you think I should just bite the bullet and go for the 1/2" or 2/3" camera I've been pining for? I mean, if I find the chroma noise completely unacceptable on my non-A DVX100, would I be kicking myself after purchasing the HVX? Thanks for any input you have on this!

 

[skyonic]

No, your comparison is "nonsense." .

good point...i feel foolish trying to bring another point to the table on this board, you are obviously right, as always, but i feel better in the fact that i got to post my findings here anyway, as i know many that feel the same way i do...

 

[David Jimerson]

good point...i feel foolish trying to bring another point to the table on this board, you are obviously right, as always, but i feel better in the fact that i got to post my findings here anyway, as i know many that feel the same way i do...

You're making it sound like you're a dissenting voice, so you're being repressed.

Hardly.

Barry is taking your posts very seriously and answering at length, point for point.

As for the P2 pricing itself, it's been discussed, rediscussed, resurrected, dissected, skewered, defended, decried, and deconstructed countless times on this board. (Do a search.) You are in no way, shape, or form the first to bring it up.

No one's trying to shut down any points of view here.

 

[philnerd]

good point...i feel foolish trying to bring another point to the table on this board, you are obviously right, as always, but i feel better in the fact that i got to post my findings here anyway, as i know many that feel the same way i do...

Dude. I have a solution to your predicament. Vote with your dollars and DON'T BUY P2 CARDS. Its really just that simple.

 

[toke lahti]

What relevance is it what the components cost? You're not buying components. You're buying a finished product that does a job.

We are buying finished product because the components are not for sale.
Relevance is fair profit margin. Somebody just dismantled new 17" iMac and calculated that the components cost little over $900 and retail price is $1400.
Many think that even that is a bit high margin.
Cost of 8GB p2 is way under $1k and retail price is $2200!
I'd say that Panny isn't trying to boost p2 camera sale by subsidying card prices for sure.

 

[Blaine]

We are buying finished product because the components are not for sale.
Relevance is fair profit margin. Somebody just dismantled new 17" iMac and calculated that the components cost little over $900 and retail price is $1400.
Many think that even that is a bit high margin.
Cost of 8GB p2 is way under $1k and retail price is $2200!
I'd say that Panny isn't trying to boost p2 camera sale by subsidying card prices for sure.

The cost of parts is only one factor in the pricing of the finished product. There are also labor and marketing costs among others. The manufacturers I have worked for use a formula that accounts for many factors in coming up with a "List Price."

 

[mmm]

Dude. I have a solution to your predicament. Vote with your dollars and DON'T BUY P2 CARDS. Its really just that simple.

Exactly. If the price is too high, people won't buy them.

Something is worth what someone will pay for it. If Pany are taking a too higher cut from P2, I think it is a big mistake. They should be pushing the format hard right now. If P2 took of and becomes THE media for the next 10 years, they would reap the long term benefits. I would think they have realised this themselves, but you never know, I've seen large companies do some things that defy belief.

I would love to see the breakdown for costs, Jan?

 

[doumm]

thanks Barry and Lenilenapi for your inital analysis of the SD qualities of the hvx, I appreciate your response. Look forward to some quantisized results in the future : )

 

[ecking]

We are buying finished product because the components are not for sale.
Relevance is fair profit margin. Somebody just dismantled new 17" iMac and calculated that the components cost little over $900 and retail price is $1400.
Many think that even that is a bit high margin.
Cost of 8GB p2 is way under $1k and retail price is $2200!
I'd say that Panny isn't trying to boost p2 camera sale by subsidying card prices for sure.

The cost of an iMac is more than the sum of it's parts. Sure parts for ROUGHLY 900, but macs aren't DIY, what about bulding the damn thing? And then marketing and advertising, packaging, software, shipping.

And you're telling me 500 dollars profit is a lot? What kind of business do you want to run, computer companies aren't the red cross. And besides like I said above it costs more than 900 dollars to produce, not counting any mass production discounts.

 

[Haakon]

Something is worth what someone will pay for it.

A completely tapeless workflow and the notion of never having to buy stock again for my camera is totally worth $650 (to me). Regardless of if that's actually what the P2 card is really "worth," it will pay for itself easily during my first shoot compared to the cost of film stock, so the cost is negligable (and then I can reuse it as much as I want at no cost). I honestly can't wait (even though we haven't been given much option but to wait...)

 

[philarno]

P2 costs

P2 costs

I think everyone agrees (outside Panasonic) that the cost and lack of storage is a problem for the P2 cards. Any camera Panasonic wants to sell to non corporate buyers (the kind of buyers that would be interested in a $5500 HD camera.) is going to be hindered by the cost of P2. If Panasonic made this camera with affordable HD recording options there would be no good arguement against buying one.

Panasonic has a long history of coming out with tech advanced equipment that dies because of bad business judgement by the company. As a news photographer I can remember that Panasonic beat everyone to the camcorder for news market. They had the M format, the recam, and M2, all of which lost to Sony and the Beta format and went extinct very quickly costing a lot of TV stations a lot of money. Panasonic never did have a serious image in TV news after that. Most of my friends that are still in news react the same when I tell them I am getting a fancy new high tech Panasonic camera. The common phrase is "Panasonic scares me, they don't support their stuff".

Dispite large initial interest, unless they address the P2 problem sooner rather than later, the HVX200 may not sell enough units to sustain the line for the long haul and buyers will be stuck with another orphaned Panasonic line.

I know I had to think long and hard about how I was going to afford HD recording with this camera before I ordered one. That question still has not been resolved, so I am just hoping that this investment will not be a big mistake.

The type of shooting I and most other guys I know do is more run and gun than the "take your time, always be near an outlet, and carry you laptop with you" kind of shooting that I'm sure many of you do.

I am hoping that we will learn that indeed there is a way you can take a small 1394 portable hard drive for $200 or $300 and direct record, or that some memory company like PNY will come up with an aftermarket P2 card that they could make a ton of profit on and still be way cheaper that Panasonic.

 

[Ralph Oshiro]

Barry:

Just "bumping" this thread in case you didn't see my post . . .

Barry, when you say they're "comparable" is that at the magic "-5 detail" setting on the HVX? Given my historic aversion to DVX-level chroma noise, do you think I should just bite the bullet and go for the 1/2" or 2/3" camera I've been pining for? I mean, if I find the chroma noise completely unacceptable on my non-A DVX100, would I be kicking myself after purchasing the HVX? Thanks for any input you have on this!

 

[Barry_Green]

Barry, when you say they're "comparable" is that at the magic "-5 detail" setting on the HVX?

-5 isn't "magic", it's just a nice level that doesn't sharpen the edges of the noise.

I'm saying that at equivalent settings, the 100B and the HVX exhibit comparable noise performance.

Given my historic aversion to DVX-level chroma noise, do you think I should just bite the bullet and go for the 1/2" or 2/3" camera I've been pining for?

I really don't think you'll be happy with anything less. From your vacillation, you really, really seem to be sold on noiseless; you'll never achieve that in a 1/3" camera (although the Sony does do quite well, but then again it's interlaced, which is different). Thing is, if I were you, I'd still keep waiting. There is such a flurry of activity in the larger-chip cameras right now -- the DSR450, the XDCAM HD, the Infinity, JVC's new 2/3" HDV, Panasonic's new 2/3" P2/D5, Red... man, NAB's only a few months away, and since so much of your decision seems to be hinging on whether or not you'll kick yourself... you owe it to yourself to see the full spectrum of options.

 

[Barry_Green]

thanks Barry and Lenilenapi for your inital analysis of the SD qualities of the hvx, I appreciate your response. Look forward to some quantisized results in the future : )

Some SD comparison stills will be posted later tonight.

 

[Ralph Oshiro]

Thing is, if I were you, I'd still keep waiting. There is such a flurry of activity in the larger-chip cameras right now -- the DSR450, the XDCAM HD, the Infinity, JVC's new 2/3" HDV, Panasonic's new 2/3" P2/D5, Red... man, NAB's only a few months away, and since so much of your decision seems to be hinging on whether or not you'll kick yourself... you owe it to yourself to see the full spectrum of options.

Barry:

Thanks for your reply! It's your opinion on these matters that I hold in the highest regard--always technically astute, aesthetically tempered, and very, very balanced. Regarding the camera purchase, you're right--lots of new 1/2" and 2/3" product around the bend. And NAB is just around the corner, isn't it? But here's how I see it . . .

[ALL PRICING ARE MY WILD-AZZ EDUCATED GUESSES ONLY]

Sony PDW-F330 1/2" XDCAM HD $20K with glass, PERIOD.
Infinity $20K without glass, so . . . $30K with glass? Plus, $??? for 24P option?
JVC $27K without glass, so . . . $35K+ with glass?
Panasonic HVX-XXX 2/3" shoulder-mount . . . $25-$28 without glass, so . . . $35-$38K+ with glass?
RED . . . ?

I don't predict anything coming out at a price point near the PDW-F330, which I'm guessing will street price right at around $20K with glass. It doesn't look like ANY of the other manufacturer's offerings will price anywhere near $20K INCLUDING glass. I only wanted to spend $20K MAX on a camera WITH glass. Anything approaching $30K and above is too rich for my blood (remember, this is basically a filmmaking TOY--I am NOT "working" this camera). I remember walking around NAB2005 cursing all the manufacturers musing, "Why did NO ONE introduce a $15K-class 1/2" 24P HD camera this year???" Well, it looks like Sony did. My last and final error-check will be just to know that the Panasonic HVX-XXX will be out of my price range, and that I can be happy with the F330 purchase at $20K. Again, thanks for your input, Barry!