35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

OK, Shaw, everyone:

the post that started this thread had a link:
http://www.enormousapparatus.com/35adapter.htm

The setup on this link just shows the 35mm lens with all kinds of spacers and a stepdown adapter running right up to the DVX lens - "Simple Design".

Later on we start talking about rotating ground glass and screens and prisms and mirrors and old used CD motors - "Complex Design".

Were the shorts on that site ( http://WWW.ENORMOUSAPPARATUS.COM/ ) not simply shot with the setup that was displayed on that site (the 35 mm lens, rings, stepdown adapter) - "Simple Design" ?

I mean I'm seeing two seperate animals here. ("Simple Design" and "Complex Design" setup)
Have I missed something?

Do these two items not produce the same result (controlled DOF?) What are the differences? Why not just use the "Simple Design"?

WTF?

I have several Canon Lens' (15mm up to 300mm) and want to use these too. But man we need to simplify this if we can.

HELP! ::)
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Well, I'm not sure it's a WTF situation really...but...

Short answer, yes, they do the same things, controlled DOF utilizing 35mm lenses.

Basically, the updated recipe that Shaw has given at the bottom of that first page allows a bit more flexibility in getting the focusing on the GG plane right without buying a bunch of $10+ UV filters only to break out the glass and use just the ring. Three of them buys you the nice clean optics tube from the cool guys at Thor Labs (they send a box of goodies with every order and ship fast).

Also note that James Webb has two thicknesses of filters on there...so unless you can play with them right there in the store, you have no idea how tall they're going to be until they show up in the mail. I imagine you can try and find out which brands use which heights, but I'm not sure.

If you've got access to a stack of 55mm filters or better yet, ones with broken glass for free or next to free, then you can create the tube from them nicely. I think that James Webb's initial design was this way because he had these handy. He'll be the first to admit that he stopped working on it last year.

The extra optics are to help some of the edge vignetting that James Webb is getting if you check the footage and the stills. Shaw would be much better at explaining this than me, for sure.

So, basically James Webb's setup does and can work, but Shaw has proposed something a little more flexible in the setup. That's about it.

Also, Shaw's design let's you not deal with grinding your own glass, which is no small chore. Just getting the glass out of there in one piece would try anyone's patience. His design is very close to the 'Click-Order-Screw Together-Go Shoot' concept that lots of people who just want to shoot are interested in.

A
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

----Mounting the Nikon Lens Mount adapter.----

Today I went by a local camera shop to try and find a way to marry the Nikon Lens Adapter to the 52mm tube.


I found something like this:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/14317-REG/ Cokin_B044_52mm_Introduction_Kit_A.html

This is a better picture, bottom left:

http://www.mav-magazine.com/feb1999/cokin/


Basically it's some kind of adapter to a quick swap lens system. IIt was $7.49. It's 52mm threaded on one side and basically flat and broad on the other side...maybe 60mm on the outside edge. Like this:

. . . ___________________
. . . . . |_____________|


It gives you a nice platform to mount the lens adapter. My initial idea was to try and put some set screws in it and through the lens adapter. Sadly I couldn't find a tap small enough to work in the space available at several consumer style hardware places.

So instead I bought a '2-Ton' epoxy that sets up in about 8 hours. I took both surfaces and sanded them on a pretty fine sandpaper to remove any of the anodization. Once the metal was exposed I took a Dremel with a metal cutoff wheel and put some nice gouges in the metal to give the expoy something to hold on to. I also drilled some small VERY shallow holes in the lens adpater's exposed area to give it even more grip.

I Mixed up the epoxy and really carefully applied it to all the surfaces that needed to go together. Then this is the part I didn't like because there's no way to be dead bang perfect...I eyeballed it together. Luckily the epoxy has a 30 minute work time, so I was able to adjust it like crazy until I was very sure it was all lined up. Put it somewhere warm because epoxy likes warm, but not hot areas.

It's pretty much set up now and seems on there for good. Seems very very tough. I was worried because screwing lenses on and off could put a lot of torsional pressure on the epoxy.

If I were to do this again, I would sand more of the anodization off of the inside and outside tubes of the lens mount because the epoxy formed a kind of 'miniscus' up the sides of the lens mount inside and out. I'm sure it's fine, but I imagine it would be even that much stronger if it was grabbing onto the actual aluminum instead.

So, hopes that helps anybody who's working on this thing.

A
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Atanguay:

dude that seem like a royal pain in the ass what you just did. Me being the lazy bastard that I am..I am going with the "simple" design of buying filter rings and all the other good stuff.

I am spent a prety penny cause I had no extra rings and I have no patience to shop around and wait for 2 weeks for it to come by.

Here is the list with price of what I have purchased from B&H

1 General Brand GBSUR5558 55mm-58mm Step-Up Ring (Lens to Filter) $5.95

1 Hoya HOUV55 55mm UV Haze Glass Filter $11.95

3 Tiffen TIUVP55 55mm UV Protector Glass Filter $27.75

1 General Brand GBSDR7255 72mm-55mm Step-Down Ring (Lens to Filter) $9.95

2 Hoya HOMCU55 55mm Macro Close-up +10 Lens $161.90

1 General Brand GBCUS55 55mm Close-up Kit (+1, +2, +4) Lens $19.95

1 Hoya HOFS55 55mm Fog Set (A&B) Effect Glass Filters $40.50

total: $277.95

If this doesn't work I will stick this barrell where the sun don't shine.

Anyone knows about CS cameras and their lenses. They are of the screw in type but I have no idea what filter size diameter they are...ive tried 37mm but it doesnt work...next i will try 43mm but it seems that it wont work either. Any ideas? Here are the lenses......anyone?

http://moviegroovy.com/lenses.html
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Well, it wasn't that bad, I just went into a lot of detail just in case someone wants to give it a shot too. I know I always like as much detail as I can get when following someone else's design.

But I'll tell you this, now that the epoxy is at full strength, it's not going ANYWHERE. The whole thing is hard as a rock. I think it would take a chisel to get it off.

So I just have to finish my GG and I'm all set.

Let us know how the rings go together.
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Super8: There are differeing opinions about which side to grind. Honestly, I don't think it makes a very large difference. However, I would personally grind the side the faces the 35mm lens.

OB1: atanguy is absolutely correct :D

atanguy: Sorry the adapter didn't work. Sounds like the epoxy will hold up just fine for you though :). I forget, are you using the DVX for your adapter?
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Shaw-

Yeah, this is a DVX, so I'm following most of the recipe you layed down on the first page. The adapter is working just fine now with the epoxy.

I was a little worried not having a 'mechanical' solution for bolting these guys together, but I'm not really worried anymore, the epoxy is extremely strong and the centering seems to be as close as human eyes can get it.

Do you think the lens adapter and hence the lens itself being a millimeter off center or so would make a big difference? I mean once again, it looks dead on, but I can't be 100% sure.

Thanks!
Andy
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

[quote author=atanguay link=board=Links;num=1106015624;start=90#101 date=02/23/05 at 21:17:59]
So, basically James Webb's setup does and can work, but Shaw has proposed something a little more flexible in the setup. That's about it.
[/quote]

atanguay: ok - thank you. I read your post 4 times. I suppose the justification for the "complex design" is to reduce the vignetting. I can certainly appreciate you guys' pursuit of good quality on this project.

I'll continue to watch this. I probably speak for a lot of us when I say that I'm glad you Shaw, Super8 and few others have the time to work on this the way you are. It's the sort of thing that ultimately brings others a lot of benefit and extended appreciation of their DVX.

Thanks again!
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Hey I meant to ask earlier:

What's the diffence between what you guys are doing here and the "micro 35" mega topic discussion going on this site as well?
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

The big thing for sure is the lack of spinning ground glass or CD wheel.

The benefit of the Micro35...if it ever gets done *cough*, is that the spinning glass will eliminate the static grain you can get with a nonmoving ground glass. There are both glass vibrator concepts and spinning wheel concepts. The only issue with the spinning disc is that if it's not very carefully ground, you can see a flickering that's pretty annoying. Looks like a movie from the turn of the century where everyone should be moving in fast motion.

The main point is where you plan on going with the video shot with a 35mm adapter. If you're smashing down to online pieces, then the static grain will more than likely be lost in the resizing and compression of the final movie. No worries.
If you're looking to go the opposite direction and blow something up for a film festival or something, then the static grain is going to be a bad scene.
How it would look at it's native resolution on a TV...good question. Not sure.

Also, the tube idea also is a bit more portable for on-the-shoulder style shooting. That's why I'm building it. I have a medium format camera setup for tripod shooting, but I want something I can put on my shoulder and play with a bit easier than that monstrosity.

Andy
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

OB1:

I think atanguay pretty much summed it all up when it comes to the differnece between the micro35 and what we are trying to accomplish.

I think it is totally cool that atanguay is doing it one way and I am doing it the other. It will be great to compare the results. I know I will get the grain...can I live with it...i guess I will have to decide when I see it in my PVM monitor. I know I have a couple of project due "yesterday" and these will only be web based interviews. As Andy said...the grain will probably be lost. If my stuff comes out looking anything like the movie "Life Against Memory" found at:

http://www.enormousapparatus.com/

I will be more than happy.

About the micro35...I jyst can't wait. I mean i pre-ordered the manual and I still haven't seen it in the mail...i can't imagine when I would be able to get my hands on one.

I will keep on working on my tube and as soon as I get anything I will let you guys know with exact part numbers...cost and all the goodies so you can get one too...100% idiot proof (off course if it really works)

p.s. i ordered the wrong stepdown rings so know i am back to waiting...but i got everything in today...even the WAO from Truegrit.com...I can taste...
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Hey guys:

I started putting together the tube made of rings. My fingers are bleeding. Definately if you are going to buy rings with the lense...get Tiffen....they are much easier to take the lens out with out breaking the glass. All you got to do is play with the lense rotating it in its own axis...when it is loose then you can turn the ring that fastens it...just as easy. Just be ready to have some serious blisters...use some rubber gloves!..that should help.

I dont have yet my lens adapter to the ring..i am hoping to get something by Tuesday. I just topically put the lens on the tube...looks pretty cool. Not bad. i could use more spacers for my design to keep the image in focus. Tomorrow I am going to get some at Ritz Camera and try it again.

Sure it is grainy but DOF is real nice!

im out
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Hey guys

put the adapter together as best i could...i am missing a couple of spacers but i will get it there. The image looks cool..grainy as heck but not bad. i will be posting some video later tonight. For now enjoy the picture of the adapter. Click below to get there.

http://moviegroovy.com/35mmadapter.html
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Looks good :)

Any frame grabs from footage? Are you using the OptoSigma GG or a home made version?
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Hey Shaw....

this is a real home made version. I got my 5 micron WAO from Truegrit.com but I have not yet done the GG.

I have been experimenting with different "alternative" forms of glass...namely paper and plastics ha ha. Just diggin back from my old...old...old photography books where they taught us how to make home made cameras. I have been looking around for types of opaque paper and plastics that would be able to project a 35mm image. I have been playing with acetate, velum and different sorts of drafting paper.

I am trying to get a real grungy look for my next project. i shoot a lot of pro8mm film and by itself that thing is grungy. I use it as B-roll...more for an artistic look.

For this series of test I used high grade velum used in wedding stationary. I was more than pleased with my first experiment. I know it is grainy as heck...but the colors are so true to life and very filmic. For my purposes I think it is beautiful...and all from velum.

i will be posting later tonight some video that i shot. As i go along I am taking detailed notes so I can then post them if others want to attain the same look.
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Hey, Super8....looks cool. Especially nice with the big lens hood.
Can't wait to see a little footage.


Personally, I assembled my first complete 'Thor Labs' tube setup yesterday after 'finishing' grinding my glass, which for some reason has become a complete disaster. I'm kinda bummed about it. I ground the thing for a full hour and for some reason the middle of the glass has these odd tiny areas that look like they aren't ground, as if the glass was harder there or something. Very strange...and of course they're smack dab in the middle of the thing...the worst possible place for them. I don't really know if it was the glass, or my method or a combination of both. I'm kind of confused as to what went wrong.

But here's some good news for anyone grinding glass with White Aluminum Oxide...I think 30 minutes will do it just fine. I was grinding the circular glass on one flat piece of glass for the first part of the grinding, then I went and bought a bigger piece for the rest of it.
After close inspection when I was done, I really think the 5 micron WAOX is going to do all it's going to do by 30 minutes. Possibly less, I'm not sure. But I would say, a full hour of hand grinding is not necessary. So that's cool, because it's tiring and boring. Some other tips that I came up with as I did it. I made my WAOX/water slurry and then put it in a mustard style squirter bottle, so when I needed to refresh it, I could just grab it and squirt a little on there. I also put the glass on a bed of damp paper towels so that they cushion but do not sap moisture away from the glass.

The final product looked pretty nice to me (barring those weird areas) but I would say the bees/white wax solution gave me better looking, less grainy screen area...I'm thinking about trying this again, it was really beautiful when it worked. I think I can get an even application in such a small area. My previous experiments with wax screens failed because I was trying to make a very large focus plane for a medium format camera back. Just too hard to control. I think I can make a 50mm tube one much easier. I may try that tomorrow...after paying another 9 bucks a shot for a round poece of glass...man, what a rip off. Ah well. Keeps you out of trouble right?
;)
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Atanguay:

Keep at it. Thanks for the info..i am preparing to grind the glass in two days.

Well, here is the video I promised. Keep in mind that I am using just Velum as my glass...so it is real grainy...but there is a beauty about it...maybe it is because I am such a Super8 freak. Reminds me a lot of grungy 8mm stock. I am totally excited about using this as an alternative to shooting, developing and ranking Super8.

There is some vignetting because the lens is not properly attached yet...I am waiting for the attachement on Tuesday...then I can experiment some more.

Ok gang...here it is! Enjoy

http://moviegroovy.com/35mmadaptervideo.html
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Super 8:

Looks very promising - definately will have great applications!

Keep us posted about the glass and the attachment.

What model of DVX is all black in color like you have? I thought that looked as good as your lens! thanks - OB1
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Cool stuff S8...the vellum does have an neat look...maybe this will start yet another topic around here about alternate focusing planes...you'll have people talking about how to slice an apple thin enough...or which brand of zip lock freezer bags work best. ;D

Why does the grain seem to move though? Are you holding the tube on there yourself or something maybe? Or is the internal stabilization on? Maybe that's it.
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

The grain seems to move because i was holding the whole lens in front of the camera. it is not secure yet so i didn't want it crashing all the way to the ground.

I tried to get my local lens crafter to polish me some glass..but they refused....bastards! I will be postong later some more footage later.
 
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