35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Ive seen footage of some adapters (which will remain nameless) that seems to have the 35mm depth of field but lacks the sharp focus that 35mm delivers. Because of this, the object that the camcorder is focusing on seems to be sharp in certain places and blurry in others. Now i think this is a problem we all face when building an adapter for video cameras. Why does this happen? I believe it occurs because we open the iris of our lenses to the lowest f setting (so to get as much light as possible). Now ive read in certain cinematography based websites that the proper f setting for 35mm is around f4. However, the more contracted the lens iris is, the less light our cameras will pick up. So heres my question:
Is there a way to get good light performance out of an adapter on a f4 setting?
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

I got a couple questions...
1) for those empty filter rings... is there a way to purchase empty filter rings, or will you have to extract the core from say, a UV filter?
2) for the ground glass/beattie, why does it have to be hand grinded?
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Yeah I've been there a bunch... I guess the value of this thread is that it's DVX-specific, as opposed to XL2/PD170 etc.

Man I'm just waiting for this all to shake out... I've got a 35mm lens and a DVX and I can't wait until I can use them together, but I'm waiting for someone to find the closest-to-ideal static 35mm DVX adapter... good luck everyone! Meanwhile I'll be sitting back reading and waiting for someone smarter than I to figure it out.
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

I tried delving into that thread on DVInfo and it made my head hurt. ;D Was pretty informative, though. In the end, I just had to pick something to attempt and dive in. Since I'm not looking for film-blowup quality, I'm not real concerned about getting everything perfect, which really helps on this project. At some point I'm sure someone will finally just produce something amazing for all of us to by or make good plans available.

LloydC - don't know if you can get empty rings, but you can find cheap UVs used at camera shops or even new at B&H. I think the cheapest are like six buck there. Although if you use the ThorLabs tube instead, it's only $25. Many ways to reach the same end.

Also, the GG doesn't have to be hand-ground. I think a lot of people are trying it in a effort to get the least amount of grain. I just bought the OptoSigma GG instead. I can only do so much myself!

Fox
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Shaw-

How much for you to build me one of these?

I'd like to say I understand the theories behind all the glass, but... I don't. I just want to shoot something with it.

Seriously, how much?

-CJ
www.arkhamfilms.com
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Well honestly I don't know! :D

Have you taken a look at redrocks setup? It certainly looks promising! Of course, not every adapter type is right for every person. At the very least I think it would be wise to wait until redrock posts new info with his updated machine.

Feel free to send me an email though :). aaronshaw[at]montanadsl.net
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Kyledroid:

You bring up a good point. It's hard to build a system that is sharp. Especially given the fact that we aren't using custom made parts.

You are quite right about the aperture though. Generally a mid aperture such as f4 will give the sharpest images. Also, we aren't using zeiss primes! The light loss problem (with some designs) can severely limit the ability to select a mid range aperture as well.
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Hey Shaw...

Did you get your setup working?

I have something to shoot really soon, so although I like what Redrock is doing, I don't have time to wait for whatever is happening over there. So I'm thinking about trying the Enormous Apparatus approach and I liked your ideas (and best of all specifics) on building one.

I like the idea of the sliding GG for setting up the focus. I can't imagine how he got lucky enough with the spacer rings to get the lens to be focused there. Seems like amazing luck.

So you're not doing the 2 diopters like James Webb?

Thanks
Andy
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Great topic!

I have been following Redrock's device...but who knows when it will be done. The 35mm rig found at:

http://www.enormousapparatus.com/35adapter.htm

looks pretty good. I've been reading all the info found here and at dvinfo.net...but too much info is overload. I have a better chance of learning swahili in two days than understanding the complexities of making this make-shift lense work.

So here are some of the questions I have...maybe someone could point me in the right direction with a swift kick in the "huevos"

1. I have an old Minolta X-700 with a 50mm 1:17 lens (49mm ring filter). Would this lense work with a DVX100? The actual lens found in the 35mm lens adapter from Enormous Apparatus is a 58mm? Don't know if it makes a difference when adding the macros and all the other stuff.

2. Where do you find a GG that comes in a circular, filter type (screw in). All the places I've looked thay sell it just as a piece of glass. Maybe I am looking in the wrong place.

3. Condenser? What is that? Where can I get one? B&H Photo? Ritz camera?

4. Do they actually sell empty spacers? or do i have to buy the filter and get rid of the glass part?

5. Silver lens mount: Ok so if I understand this correctly...on one side you attach the lense...on the other it screws in to the spacer..or ring filter?

I just want to be a little prepared when I go my local photographic store. One gets tired of getting that "you idiot" look. :)

Sorry for all the elementary questions....just want to make one. i understand it will be grainy and all the other stuff.

Thanks
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Before you ask James (he's a busy guy), I'll tell you what he said about GG to me. All of these things apply to James's method...

----"Anyway, what I did was the old-fashioned "grind your own" method. I bought 1 and 5 Micron WAO (White Aluminum Oxide). I got it online from gotgrit.com (approx. $6 for .5 lb). I don't think he even carries 1 Micron anymore. I ended up using the 5. The 1 was too fine and tends to polish smooth more than grind.

I used a $7-10 Hoya UV filter with the "C" ring fastener. Popped that out and the glass falls right out. Careful not to chip. Taped up one side of the filter glass. Got a 8x10 plane of glass from a framed photo and mixed about 1:2 water and WAO. You want to create a paste with a little "resistance" when grinding. Then grind in a circular pattern (within a larger circular pattern) for a total of about 1/2 hour - 1 hour. Maybe a little more. I did it over the course of days. I'd grind a little and test the results. Then do some more. I'd repeat if I got a finger print on it or found any inconsistencies, etc. I do remember using the 1 Micron intermittently, but I'm not sure if that had any effect on the final GG. Probably not."


----No empty spacers...just popping out the glass on cheap filters.

----I can't figure out what a condenser is either.
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

More good info from James....

"The condenser is a thin +4 macro. It should really be a PCX (plano-convex). But I bought a bunch of very thin, very weak macros and ended up using that one. For best results I would suggest using a PCX. But then again, I haven't kept up with the progress others are making. The PCX was the best solution last year."

(Condenser seems to mean how the lens/filter is used, not a specific type of lens. This is condensing the image on the ground glass inside the 'tube' of rings.)

"As for the lens mount, it did come off the camera body itself. That way I insured that the lens and the mount seamlessly worked together."
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Atanguay:

thanks for the info...gee sounds a little complicated...but it probably isn't.

Do you know if Hoya's macro's are the best to use. They are pretty pricey at $70+ each for 10+ macro.

When you pop out the glass from the Hoya UV filter I guess when your done grinding...you pop it back in?

Gotgrit.com doesn't work for me...any other places I can get this paste stuff.
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Atanguy: The setup does work. Depends on what you need though. I assume you have a DVX? The grain will be noticable in this version.

1. I have an old Minolta X-700 with a 50mm 1:17 lens (49mm ring filter). Would this lense work with a DVX100? The actual lens found in the 35mm lens adapter from Enormous Apparatus is a 58mm? Don't know if it makes a difference when adding the macros and all the other stuff.
Click to expand...

Theoretically you could use any focal length you wanted with such an adapter. In practice, the focal lengths you use can be limited by your design. Some will vignette at certain focal lengths.

2. Where do you find a GG that comes in a circular, filter type (screw in). All the places I've looked thay sell it just as a piece of glass. Maybe I am looking in the wrong place.
Click to expand...

Check out the links I posted a while back. I included a link to the OptoSigma 50mm diameter ground glass.

3. Condenser? What is that? Where can I get one? B&H Photo? Ritz camera?
Click to expand...

"condenser" is used to describe a fast single lens that is used to control the focus of the light. In many cases it literally condenses - or shrinks - the image. You probably won't find optical components at a photographic shop.

4. Do they actually sell empty spacers? or do i have to buy the filter and get rid of the glass part?
Click to expand...

I believe they do but found the OptoSigma lens tube to be much better. It allows for direct control over distances between elements which is a necessity. Link is a page or two back I believe.

5. Silver lens mount: Ok so if I understand this correctly...on one side you attach the lense...on the other it screws in to the spacer..or ring filter?
Click to expand...

Basically yes. It's just a way to mount the lens to the actual apparatus.
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!



>>>thanks for the info...gee sounds a little complicated...but it probably isn't.

There are quite a few ideas out there, but once again, no real...click here, order that, screw together solution to make perfection. Well, I guess except for the Micro35 now that I think about it. In the cheap arena I mean.
I've found that it all depends on your planned output, if the idea is to blow this stuff up to a big screen, or a really big screen, these static glass solutions are going to be bad news...having a static noise/grain pattern. But say you're making content for the web or something, there's a good chance that grain would get lost in the compression.
Right now I'm doing the medium format camera with a Beattie focusing screen concept, and it's working out pretty nicely. But once again, I'm not incredibly worried about grain, because this is web content that I'm shooting.



>>>>Do you know if Hoya's macro's are the best to use. They are pretty pricey at $70+ each for 10+ macro.

Do not know, but not a lot of selection out there if Google/Froogle are any indication. Seems to be one of the only ways to go. Some more digging might turn up another manufacturer...but B+H seems to list most of them and when the size and spec is filtered out, Hoya is left standing. Adorama has them cheaper, but are out of stock.



>>>When you pop out the glass from the Hoya UV filter I guess when your done grinding...you pop it back in?

Yes...that's the idea...get the clear piece of glass out of there, get the ground side on it for the lens to project it's image using James Webb's method, put it back together, and put it in your 'tube'. Now, how that tube is made the debate...Shaw has an elegant idea also as you can see above.



>>>>Gotgrit.com doesn't work for me...any other places I can get this paste stuff.

I just ordered from them the other day...maybe sunday. I would just wait...must be server trouble. Other than that I would hit google for other sources of AOX.
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

[quote author=Shaw link=board=Links;num=1106015624;start=60#73 date=02/15/05 at 10:45:42]Atanguy: The setup does work. Depends on what you need though. I assume you have a DVX? The grain will be noticable in this version. [/quote]

Thanks Shaw. Yeah, static grain doesn't bug me too much because I'm making a lot of web content, and that stuff seems to be getting left behind when I have to compress it down. So that's a good deal.

I've had this idea recently concerning grain. I'm wondering if you could take one of these static grain setups (the tube or the focus screen) and shoot a 50% gray card...as evenly lit as humanly possible. Then took a capture of that, inverted that, and used that as a 'lighten' adjustment over shot footage in your compositing or editing package.

The idea being to sort of take the pixels that are darkened by the grain and pushing them up to match the other pixels. Sort of a 'normalizing' image. Might need to be done to push up lighter pixels.

It's just an idea...and I figure out take some doing...and there probably is an layer compositing type that would work better than 'lighten'...but you see what I'm getting at. In fact, the gray would continue to lighten. Well, there's some way to use this image, I just need to think about it a little more.

Ever heard of anyone trying this? I figure it's worth a shot.

One trick I've used to get a noise free image is to take 3 or more of the exact same shot and use an 'averaging' program or plugin to take an average of the sequence of shots. The free program 'Panorama Tools' has an averager that works perfectly for this. You point to several locked down shots of the exact same thing and it will take each pixel from ShotA+ShotB+ShotC/3 and give you an image with the noise removed. Works really well.
I was thinking this could be done with the gray card. 3 averaged shots. This might also help in adjusting out vignetting.

An idea.
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Hey guys

thanks for all the info...lets see with what lense I come up with. The stuff i will shoot will only be for regular 3:4 tv set..just commercial work and interviews.....

There is so much stuff out there when it comes to info..it sometimes gets confusing.....

thanks again
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Hey Shaw:

"Check out the links I posted a while back.  I included a link to the OptoSigma 50mm diameter ground glass."

I saw the ground glass...does it come in a filter ring or I would have to find one to pop it in?

by the way your tube looks pretty cool...did it work? Do you have any pictures to show of the results?

How did you determine the position of the Aspheric Lens and the GG inside the Optics Tube. I saw that the tube has some sort of screw in groove. Is this to hold the lenses in place with the holder?
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

The tube works well. The aspheric lens goes right up against the GG. You screw in retaining rings to hold the glass in the tube. Also, the GG and lens just slide into the tube. It is pretty slick, get the exact right distance may be tricky, but mine seemed to work. I found what the focal plane for my particular lens (a Canon FD) was and measured for it. It's stlll a bit of trial and error, though.
 
Re: 35mm Enormous Apparatus / EASY AS HELL!?!?!

Jason:

how did you measured the focal plane?

do you have pictures or a diagram of yours?
 
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