30p -what can play it..

M

morgan_moore

Major Contributor
All the stress of no 24/25p

Ignoring 'the look' and the problems of shooting flickering light sources does 30p matter ?

I have been religouly re-timing all my footage to 25p (using streamclip to create 25p-AIC) and being upset by jerky motion/double imaging where the camera or subject moves fast

(I havent tried cineform yet)

It is this jerkyness that stresses me - all the 'best bits' go wrong

So I must retime to show on youtube or vimeo or broadcast television

But..

If I make a 30FPS QT movie (at 720) it plays fine on my computer (I think my computer cant handle the datarate of 1080?)

If I create my own 30FPS QT movies for the web display will they play ok

What are the other outputs play 30p? digital projectors ?

Are there any other 'youtube' style sites that dont retime - or maybe do 15FPS (!)

I can only see my work being displayed on..

-The web
-Company Foyers/Trade stands
-Maybe indy film competitions

So should I be retiming at all ?

S
 
do you have any samples of your converter work? on a side note the panasonic GH1 will be 24/25p you might wanna look into that aswelll.
 
www.vimeo.com/sammorganmoore you should be able to DL some files - read the comments - not all 5d (files are dowsized and compressed of course)

Of course I could get a GH1 but that will mean a lens investment and loss of narrow DOF, I could get many other cameras of course - I probably will get that camera and everything until something that makes me happy (5dMK5 nikon D4x ?)

In stills I bought basically every nikon until the d3 - much cash wasted- my goal was to find a camera that matched a nikon fm2/f3 and scanned film - the D3 is 'good enough' to meet that spec - happiness is not wanting a new DSLR - do I need to waste as much cash/emotion in the persuit of smooth playing video with a reasonable DOF look

If by some fluke I have broadcast interest I can just let the customer sort out the footage or send it off to some pro house for thier best retiming effort - my local TV has a system from Quantel - no idea what it is - but im sure it can retime better than me and some $120 software

The question is what is wrong with 30p if it aint for PAL broadcast ?



S
 
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morgan_moore said:
All the stress of no 24/25p

Ignoring 'the look' and the problems of shooting flickering light sources does 30p matter ?
Click to expand...


You question is vague. What do you mean 'by does it matter ?'

While we are on the subject of ambiguous questions, can I ask you 'does variance matter ?' :)


morgan_moore said:
I have been religouly re-timing all my footage to 25p (using streamclip to create 25p-AIC) and being upset by jerky motion/double imaging where the camera or subject moves fast
Click to expand...


MPEG Streamclip unfortunately only offers you frame blending when converting from one frame rate to another. Double imaging and less than smooth motion will always be an issue.

Don't convert your footage from 30p to 25/24p in MPEG Streamclip if you want a 'natural' (smooth) result. There are numerous other much much better solutions that will avoid these problems.


morgan_moore said:
If I create my own 30FPS QT movies for the web display will they play ok
Click to expand...

The web itself has no frame rate, they will play fine on people's computers.
 
Does it matter ?

Stuttering strobing or jerking or hanging footage "matter" to me

the 'certain look' matters less

The jerky opening pans of http://www.vimeo.com/3027137 matter to me (5d miller fluid head)
and in my film.. http://www.vimeo.com/3326341 at 2.00 there is a pan down some oysters that look like a bad night in the disco (5d merlin steadicam) - that matters too
They are smooth shots in FCP
-------

In terms of playback it seems like it will play fine on computers - this is cool - looks like I will have to seek a hosting solution that is not Youtub or Vimeo - any suggestions

what else will it play on ?

how could I advise a client to display at a venue/trade show or in a foyer ?

Computer Playback..
In terms of the web 'having no frame rate' are not monitors driven best/best performing when operated at an easy multiple of the country hertz rate - I thought my monitor performs best at 75 HZ being an easily division of 50Hz - maybe I am wrong or this is more relevant to CRT than LCD - and would not the footage display best at a easy multiple of the screen refresh rate

I have been experimenting tonight with various QT and streamclip conversions

Even exporting as a set of jpgs and deleting 1/6 of the frames ! :)

My conclusion is that my computer plays 30FPS better than I can create any 25fps

Considering that probably 90% of non broadcast footage is destined to be seen on computers (that is even where I watch DVDs) - I am not sure what the great fuss is about this 5d 'deficiency'

In terms of my workflow I think I will move towards a 30p workflow when editing in FCP and then export or convert at different frame rates for specific uses in future rather than retiming all to 25p before editing which is what I have been doing - partly to match with my Ex1 which I shoot at 25p - the desision now is to change my EX1 to 30p or not

More comment welcome ..

S
 
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Aside from PAL broadcast, 30p can be played back on just about anything. Computers and play it back just fine, as can almost all web video hosting sites I know of. If you want it on a computer at a trade show floor and you aren't running the TV off a computer you can burn a 30p DVD just fine. It will actually be 30p that gets put into a 60i stream but it will look and playback just the same as it was captured.

The only "problem" people have with the 30p on the 5DMKII is the cadence difference between it and 24p. But that is an aesthetic issue and not a discussion really for this thread, as there are countless others already on it.
 
Indeed the cadence is an aesthetic ideal - not one I dissaprove of but it is not my primary worry

It is the jerking that I hate as linked above in my (edited) post

I thought vimeo and you tube dont handle 30 FPS - maybe ive been shooting my footage in the foot by retiming befroe uploading !

S
 
morgan_moore said:
Does it matter ?

Stuttering strobing or jerking or hanging footage "matter" to me
Click to expand...


What then is your question !? What do you mean by 'does 30p matter ?'

The only answer I could offer would be - yes, it matters to those who need to shoot at 30p.


morgan_moore said:
In terms of playback it seems like it will play fine on computers - this is cool - looks like I will have to seek a hosting solution that is not Youtub or Vimeo - any suggestions
Click to expand...

You could have your own website, with the movies hosted there. Or you could put your stuff up on Vimeo - where people can download the original full quality clips you uploaded.

morgan_moore said:
what else will it play on ?
Click to expand...

30p ?

Most DVD players, TVs, computers, ipods, media players, projectors, mobile phones etc etc.

morgan_moore said:
how could I advise a client to display at a venue/trade show or in a foyer ?
Click to expand...

Tell them to hook up an ipod/computer/HD-player/DVD player (etc etc) to a television.

morgan_moore said:
Computer Playback..
In terms of the web 'having no frame rate' are not monitors driven best/best performing when operated at an easy multiple of the country hertz rate - I thought my monitor performs best at 75 HZ being an easily division of 50Hz - maybe I am wrong or this is more relevant to CRT than LCD - and would not the footage display best at a easy multiple of the screen refresh rate
Click to expand...

Your monitor is not the 'web'.

How is 75 an easy division of 50 ?

I think we are drifting into the realm of technical semantic epistemology here, you seem to have a lot of baggage when approaching this 'problem' (?). :zombie_smiley:

morgan_moore said:
I have been experimenting tonight with various QT and streamclip conversions

Even exporting as a set of jpgs and deleting 1/6 of the frames ! :)
Click to expand...


That's about as good as it gets with MPEG Streamclip, you are largely wasting your time if you want a smooth/natural look to 24/25p conversions from 30p with this software.

morgan_moore said:
My conclusion is that my computer plays 30FPS better than I can create any 25fps
Click to expand...

Don't blame yourself for MPEG Streamclips failings.

morgan_moore said:
Considering that probably 90% of non broadcast footage is destined to be seen on computers (that is even where I watch DVDs) - I am not sure what the great fuss is about this 5d 'deficiency'
Click to expand...

I kind of agree with you here, from a technical point of view you make a sound point, most footage will be watched on a computer monitor - and I expect this to the standard in the future - but 30p v 24/25p has never been a technical issue.

People want their footage to play at 24/25p for aesthetic reasons, to many people (myself included) 30p looks more like video, whilst 24/25p has a more filmic/unreal look. When people seek out ways to create their work at 24/25p it is not so it will playback fine on their mother's DVD player, it is generally for artistic reasons, in this sense 30p is a 'deficiency'.

Think of it like this, Canon could create a perfect guitar amp that goes really loud but never distorts, people might complain that you cannot make this thing distort and you might argue that 'I am not sure what the great fuss is about this 'deficiency'' - after all the recordings from this amp can be played just fine on most media - but people's desire for distortion in guitar recordings is not a technical issue.

I hope that makes sense !

morgan_moore said:
In terms of my workflow I think I will move towards a 30p workflow when editing in FCP and then export or convert at different frame rates for specific uses in future rather than retiming all to 25p before editing.
Click to expand...


A very good plan in my opinion. Work at 30p then convert the final piece (NOT USING MPEG STRESMCLIP!! :zombie_smiley::zombie_smiley::) to 24/25p.
 
morgan_moore said:
Indeed the cadence is an aesthetic ideal - not one I dissaprove of but it is not my primary worry

It is the jerking that I hate as linked above in my (edited) post

I thought vimeo and you tube dont handle 30 FPS - maybe ive been shooting my footage in the foot by retiming befroe uploading !

S
Click to expand...


Vimeo converts everything to 24p.

This maybe causing the problem.

Although you might be introducing the problem yourself when converting your footage with MPEG Streamclip.
 
William_Robinette said:
Absolutely everything? Because I was under the impression it was only converted to 24p if you upload an HD file, and everything else was left alone.
Click to expand...

You might be correct, I know this is the case with HD and I have (perhaps incorrectly) extended this to all uploaded footage.

One other exception (of footage no converted to 24p) is HD footage already at 24p. (!)
 
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Lee Wilson said:
Vimeo converts everything to 24p.

This maybe causing the problem.

Although you might be introducing the problem yourself when converting your footage with MPEG Streamclip.
Click to expand...

Absolutely - I can see Im doing the worst thing streamclipping from 30 to 25 and then Vim taking the 25 down to 24 - thats two indivisible conversions

Lee Wilson said:
How is 75 an easy division of 50 ?

I think we are drifting into the realm of technical semantic epistemology here, you seem to have a lot of baggage when approaching this 'problem' (?).
Click to expand...

75 is 1.5 of 50 which means in my simple head that a 75hz monitor can play 25p footage by holding each frame for three cycles wheras the math gets tricky for 30fps - just a theory - probably wrong

Bagage ?

I dont think I have bagage - or if I do it is bagage picked up from the reviews and threads that constantly describe the 5d as critically flawed

I have been seeking that flaw - while enjoying a nice viewing experience on my mac, and gaining bagage as I do so but if it plays adequately, possibly not artistically, on..

"Most DVD players, TVs, computers, ipods, media players, projectors, mobile phones etc etc."

I dont think I have much to worry about

I will be heading for a 30p editing workflow - outputting at 30p unless there is a specific reason not to such as vimeo or PAL broadcast requirement

This thread, if accurate, is most useful to me

I am in the UK BTW.

SMM
 
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