30P vs. 24P

J

J_Farina

Member
Are there any advantages or disadvantages to shooting in 30P vs. 24P. i know the science behind it, but I just heard from a director that her (apparently) experienced DP is going to shoot in 30P.

Will the camera perform as well at 30P?
Is the only difference going to be in the motion blur?
J.
 
Re: 30P vs. 24P

[quote author=J_Farina link=board=Events;num=1090204590;start=0#0 date=07/18/04 at 19:36:30]Are there any advantages or disadvantages to shooting in 30P vs. 24P. i know the science behind it, but I just heard from a director that her (apparently) experienced DP is going to shoot in 30P.

Will the camera perform as well at 30P?
Is the only difference going to be in the motion blur?
J.[/quote]

The advantage of 24p is transfer to film. 30p is better for transfer to HDTV formats.
 
Re: 30P vs. 24P

The project is going to DVD only.
I guess the DP siad he was doing it b/c he is shooting outside and the fast shutter speed produces to much jitter. My answer is the slow shutter speed and ND filters.
Is that somehow worse than shooting 30P?
 
Re: 30P vs. 24P

[quote author=J_Farina link=board=Events;num=1090204590;start=0#2 date=07/18/04 at 19:50:44]The project is going to DVD only.
I guess the DP siad he was doing it b/c he is shooting outside and the fast shutter speed produces to much jitter. My answer is the slow shutter speed and ND filters.
Is that somehow worse than shooting 30P?[/quote]

I would never choose a format to shoot in, 24p versus 30p, with modern technology, based on issues of light. Shutter speed matters when you compare p to i since i acts as if it is twice the shutter speed but the images are half resolution (higher blur).

Choose the format that is best for your target, both 24 and 30p will perform similarly. If the main goal is DVD, 30p or 60i is the preferred method of shooting.
 
Re: 30P vs. 24P

I disagree that if the main goal is DVD, 30p or 60i is the preferred method of shooting. All DVD's can be made in 24P as the DVD player will drop down to 29.97 if needed.
 
Re: 30P vs. 24P

[quote author=J_Farina link=board=Events;num=1090204590;start=0#4 date=07/18/04 at 20:07:53]I disagree that if the main goal is DVD, 30p or 60i is the preferred method of shooting. All DVD's can be made in 24P as the DVD player will drop down to 29.97 if needed.
[/quote]

But the TV set is 29.97, and if you look at all professionally made DVDs, they are all scan converted to 29.97 NTSC when released.

However, this is a personal preference of yours. If you want 24p, then shoot 24p.
 
Re: 30P vs. 24P

DVD players were designed from the beginning to function properly with 24P: they introduce pulldown automatically, meaning they do the exact same thing the DVX does when it records to tape.

30P vs. 24P: 30P will give slightly smoother motion, at the risk of looking a bit more video-like instead of film-like. Also shooting 30P means you won't get a film transfer or PAL conversion from it. 24P will let you make a true progressive 24P DVD, which will let you either fit 20% more material on the DVD, or encode it at a milder compression ratio.
 
Re: 30P vs. 24P

I have read info to the contrary; that all DVD's out of Hollywood are 24P in the case. The DVD player adds the pull down. Where did you get your info?
J.
 
Re: 30P vs. 24P

That's what I said (isn't it?) Hollywood DVD's are encoded at 24P, and DVD players were designed to deal with it from the beginning. They add pulldown to output 60i, but the DVD itself is encoded at 24 frames per second. Which is why I'm saying, there are significant advantages to encoding your DVD as a 24P DVD (more space, less compression). Sorry if I was confusing.
 
Re: 30P vs. 24P

the confusion was my fault. I used a window that hadn't been refrshed to reply to SlapDragon's comments.
What you are saying is the way i alwasy understood it to be. If there was some advantage to shooting 30P, then why did they make this camera?
Thanks for backing me up.
J.
 
Re: 30P vs. 24P

There's no technical reason why you wouldn't want to shoot in 24P, and in fact (if making a DVD, or transfering to film) there are benefits. With the DVX, a progressive frame's image quality is the exact same, regardless of it's originating frame rate. The only reasons not to shoot 24P would be aesthetic ones...
 
Re: 30P vs. 24P

[quote author=J_Farina link=board=Events;num=1090204590;start=0#7 date=07/18/04 at 20:27:33]I have read info to the contrary; that all DVD's out of Hollywood are 24P in the case. The DVD player adds the pull down. Where did you get your info?
J.[/quote]

Ripping DVDs to get scenes to show in class.  About 80% turn out to be 29.97fps which is converted to 60i for playback.  Since you are going to television anyway, it does not really matter how they are encoded.  High motion scenes will benefit from 30p, 24p gives more space on the disk.  

The 20% difference in frame rate between 24p and 30p is not all that much.  With HDTV moving toward 30p, a lot of us will be shooting in this in any case.

Remember, that 24p has "mystique" but that mystique does not always translate into much in the real world. Using a system like QT you could create a video viewable on a computer at 22fps, 27fps, or 26.545454fps and none of them would have a viewable advantage, and all have to get to 29.97 or 30 somewhere along the line, unless you have a p capable broadcast monitor.
 
Re: 30P vs. 24P

[quote author=Mike_Donis link=board=Events;num=1090204590;start=0#12 date=07/19/04 at 11:00:32]Is HDTV moving towards 30P?  I thought it was 1080/60i[/quote]

There are 16 formats of HDTV which can be decoded by a regulation system.  All share the 30/60 timebase.  I expect movies to eventually switch to 30p to fit this time base. DTV uses an "e-cinema" standard with 24p broadcast, but it was designed for "digital cinema" and broadcast to traditional cinema audience. It of course will have proponents, but your HDTV broadcaster is accepting materials in 30p or 60i.
 
Re: 30P vs. 24P

[quote author=Slapdragon link=board=Events;num=1090204590;start=0#13 date=07/19/04 at 12:24:52]

There are 16 formats of HDTV which can be decoded by a regulation system.  All share the 30/60 timebase.  I expect movies to eventually switch to 30p to fit this time base. [/quote]

I'm skeptical of that. There's been plenty of incentive for that since 1953.
 
Re: 30P vs. 24P

[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=Events;num=1090204590;start=0#14 date=07/19/04 at 13:38:18]

I'm skeptical of that.  There's been plenty of incentive for that since 1953.
[/quote]

But there has never been 30p available until very recently (last 10 years for field material). In other words, there is no real difference between 30p and 24p except 24p has the mystique of "film." The HDTV committee had the chance to run with 24p and choose instead to only include it in the extended definition. When CBS says to you that you will deliver 30p product, will you tell them no out of love for 24p when technically they do not appear different and when no matter what you deliver it will go out 30p?

The 30/60 standard was chosen because every electrical device in the US can easily get time base from a wall socket. While I believe 60i wont survive the next generation of sets (and broadcasters would love to get rid of it also) 30p has too many advantages. Plus, it is easier to throw away data already collected in 30p (20% pull down) than to fake up data in 24p by repeating frames, and you get better quality.
 
Re: 30P vs. 24P

Are you referring to programming shot for television or programming shot for theatrical release?
 
Re: 30P vs. 24P

[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=Events;num=1090204590;start=15#16 date=07/19/04 at 15:07:54]Are you referring to programming shot for television or programming shot for theatrical release?[/quote]

Everything, as convergence is telling us your media had better be able to be repurposes. Of course, more stuff is shot for television release than ever gets shot for theatrical, a single season of CSI represents 6 feature length movies in terms of hours worked for the crews (lack of setup time helps make this possible). But there will come a time when either TV goes 24p or film goes 30p, or (depending on the technology) a new HD format comes out with variable frame rates, making it all moot.
 
Re: 30P vs. 24P

I'd see a multi-frame rate format, no? What's happening in Europe, are they going 30P/60i too? Or are they staying in 50i/25P?

Having a multi-frame rate television system sounds like the best idea - that way everyone shoots how they want to. For theatrical projection, I'd assume it would be most definitely, having everything off of hard disks, and any frame rate would be possible...

It seems the most convenient to everybody, at least...
 
Re: 30P vs. 24P

60i will unquestionably survive -- if for no other reason than SPORTS.  The faster frame rate of 1080/60i will be with us forever. Some broadcasters may choose 1280 x 720 x 60p for sports instead, which would probably look better, but for those who want to broadcast 1920x1080, then 60i will be their choice for sports programming.

24P is firmly entrenched in the ATSC HDTV specs.  HDTV is any combination of 1920 x 1080 or 1280 x 720 at either 24P, 30P or 60i (60p in the case of 1280 x 720).

Why the assertion that 30p will trounce 24p is beyond me.  The VariCam, the CineAlta, the 950, all the digital cinema cameras are shooting at 24P as well as 30P.  I doubt very strongly that 24P will become some sort of un-viable format, ESPECIALLY since 30P makes for a lousy conversion to PAL, and our PAL friends over in Europe don't seem too intent on giving up PAL in exchange for HDTV any time soon.

24P is definitely here to stay.
 
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