3 HVXs in studio? What Switcher? What Capture Card?

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dvInsight

Well-known member
I have been a long time reader of this forum and value the breadth of knowledge that is shared here daily. My problem, and don't hate me, is that I have to replace 3 aging Canon XL1's with new cameras in a small studio that I use to create educational DVDs and web content.

I currently have the 3 cameras feeding a small Videonics switcher via s-video. The switcher is connected to a Sony DSR30 deck via s-video and recorded to MiniDV. The tape is moved along to another deck and imported into FinalCut for finishing. This has worked pretty well for 3+ years.

I now want to improve my production quality, add green/blue screen capability, and have the option for HD for some digital signage productions that I am starting. I have looked at the HVX, Sony, and Canon's HD offering. I'm currently leaning 95% towards the HVX (the noise issue is keeping me from being at 100%) with the Canon having a small shot because I would love the SDI output (but the $$$$ is killer, remember, I need 3).

So let's say I get 3 HVXs and want to keep my current work flow while maintaining a higher level of resolution and color fidelity. What switcher do you think I should be looking at? Also, I obviously have to bypass the DSR30 so that all the goodness doesn't get crunched. So what input card should I get for a dual G5 Mac? Kona? Also, can I just then dump this into FinalCut so I do not have to do any additional logging?

I am just thrilled to be making this move and am looking forward to any and all comments.

Thanks,

Rob
 
Rob,

I own an HVX as a production cam and it is great, but I also run an imag set up for a church on weekends with 5 XXL1's outputting for live and on the web.

We will also be upgrading our cams this year and have elected to go with the xlh1.

Why?
1. ease of use for Operators (Familiar Cam)
2. Genlock (Ability to lock frames together is huge in live switching. No split screen that we used to get with Videonics)
3. SDI- Qualty is unprecedented if you're used to S Vid only.
4. HD and HD-SDI for future proofing.

We used the Videonics for 4 years so I am comfortable with its shortcomings. We elected to go with Panasonics MX70. It runs in Component, S-Vid and Composite and has an option to upgrade to SDI down the road.

It does 16X9 as well as 4X3. Does tally, serial control, and Genlock as well as a DSK for live graphic overlays from inside or outside the board.

After using the Videonics...IT IS A GODSEND!

As for Capture, AJA makes great Kona Cards or Black Majic would be my recommendations...

Hope that helps.
 
Thank you re 3 HVXs

Thank you re 3 HVXs

Dan thanks,

That is exactly the input I knew this forum could generate. The Canon H1 started off as our first choice in the office, but the $10K price, as well as the entire cost of moving to SDI is prohibitive.

We use the Videonics MXpro DV Switcher and tend to use cross fades and straight wipes with no ill effects. I will still upgrade it to at least component video regardless of camera choice.

I am going to the Los Angeles Apple/Panasonic Seminar this Wednesday to see if I can learn more about the HVX and see more video samples.

If it were not for using the DVX100a for some non-studio work and falling in love with what it does for people and its non video look, I would probably just kept crunching the numbers to make the Canon H1 work.

It is a tough decision. I can save thousands by going with the HVX and get the look I want, plus get the benefit of multi-frame rate capability. I just don't know if the HVX makes the best studio choice. It certainly would be a huge upgrade from the XL1s.

Another interesting thing I might try. I was talking with Ryan over at EVS in Glendale and he suggested that I try dumping the firewire directly out of the switcher into FinalCut as DVCPro instead of going into a Kona card.

Any thoughts?
 
Rob,

We have used both the MXPRO and the DV version and the firewire ports are limited to DV25. So that won't really up your quality at all.

I would look for getting a card for your setup. We record to a Hard Disk Recorder because our edit suite is in another building.

You could still use the H1 and go component until you can afford SDI, but the future is there when you are ready.

Also, any HD codec you use will be 16X9 so you will need to look at a new switcher or stay in DVCPRO50 land for awhile. Also woud need new monitors if you made the switch.

I agree that the HVX image is by far the nicest in lattitude and color. It blows our XL1's away. Variable frame rates will only help you if you do edit your footage in post, but for Green Screens the HVX will be my workhorse.

Both good cams. One has a great image, ease of use and easily editable. The other has amazing broadcast features and high resolution.

Tough choice--That's why I bought both....LOL!

Hope that helps. Let me know what you decide. BTW, EVS is a great company. Cody and Rush have helped me out a ton....more than they probably know!
 
pretopost said:
I agree that the HVX image is by far the nicest in lattitude and color. It blows our XL1's away. Variable frame rates will only help you if you do edit your footage in post, but for Green Screens the HVX will be my workhorse.
Click to expand...

Have you tested the HVX vs. the Canon XLH1 for greenscreen yet? Seems like the Canon with HD-SDI would be the ultimate. I just got my HVX and I have to admit it's growing on me quickly, but I've been very skeptical of it... but I still put my money down when Rush called 'cause I knew it wouldn't be horrible.
 
joelnet said:
Have you tested the HVX vs. the Canon XLH1 for greenscreen yet? Seems like the Canon with HD-SDI would be the ultimate. I just got my HVX and I have to admit it's growing on me quickly, but I've been very skeptical of it... but I still put my money down when Rush called 'cause I knew it wouldn't be horrible.
Click to expand...

Pulling a key from the HVX is amazing on FCP. I would never think of doing a key back at 4:1:1 or 4:2:0.

Loses too much that you have to choke the snot out of it and then you lose edge detail.

All my keys so far have turned out gorgeous.
 
Dan,

Again thank you for your input. Since green screen compositing is one of the things that I really want to do/improve, it makes me more confident about the HVX.

So are you saying that the HVX and the Canon are comparable in their ability to pull a clean matte? Since I have studio lighting maybe the noise issue is moot.

Mikko, Budget is loose. It is between 25K to 50K. This equipment will be in the studio for another 3 to 5 years unless advances in technology dictate otherwise. In a perfect world I would spend 25K and get 3 HVXs, an upgraded switcher, the appropriate input card that talks to FinalCut and a small terabyte HD array.

I'lll probably end up spending more than $25K and less than $50K.

If the HVX had SDI and the noise issue was not there (and even a $1,000 bump) I would have my order in. By the same token, if the Canon were less expensive by $2,000 I would probably go that way to take advantage of my investment in Canon glass. Actually, if Canon would just sell the H1 body I would be done.

They are both really good options.

I would love to get more input, especially from people who may have either , or both the HVX and the H1. So Dan, if the Canon did not have genlock, what would you do?

Thanks all.

Rob
 
dvInsight said:
I would love to get more input, especially from people who may have either , or both the HVX and the H1. So Dan, if the Canon did not have genlock, what would you do?
Click to expand...

If no genlock and no SDI, I'd buy the HVX with a good studio set-up, nice sticks and without a doubt pick up a Panasonic MX70 to switch from.

(Also, SIDE NOTE, the MX70 has a built in Keyer, way better than Videonics, which is good for a live check of a Green Screen shoot to see if lighting will work.)

Also, go with a Kona Card and Promax makes a Great SATA Raid for HD or there's always an XServe Raid.

Hope that helps,
 
It's A Small World!

It's A Small World!

joelnet said:
Have you tested the HVX vs. the Canon XLH1 for greenscreen yet? Seems like the Canon with HD-SDI would be the ultimate. I just got my HVX and I have to admit it's growing on me quickly, but I've been very skeptical of it... but I still put my money down when Rush called 'cause I knew it wouldn't be horrible.
Click to expand...


Hey,

I noticed you're in Arizona. What do you shoot primarily for? Would be nice to know another HVX user in Phoenix. Maybe we could tag team with dueling HVX's....LOL
 
The MX70 is not HD. - SD only.

Going live HD will be pricy. But you have a budget for the job.

First off, HD or SD, genlock and SDI are your best friend. They allow you to use a REAL switcher - no the MX70 isn't a real switcher. I'd recomend the XL-H1 over teh HVX for any live work, for this alone. (The HVX's strengthes are in the way it records, it's not a studio camera.
Heck, you could get 3 XL-H1s, genlock them and feed their synced composite feed to a Grass Valley 110 switcher form ebay (seen them for a grand, amazed if you have to pay more than 2 grand for one) and it would kick the pants off any one of the prosumer "switchers".

However here's my recomendation:
Call up Ross video and ask them for an offer on the Synergy 100 MD switcher. It'll switch that HD-SDI from those genlocked XL-H1s beutifully. - Then you'll have a HD-SDI output to record as you wish. - Probably into a decklink card or any HD deck. - Or just run it in SD mode untill you wish to upgrade to HD recording.
They make great switchers, I love 'em!

Linky for Ross: http://www.rossvideo.com/synergy/synergy100md_overview.html


- Mikko
 
mikkowilson said:
The MX70 is not HD. - SD only.

Going live HD will be pricy. But you have a budget for the job.

First off, HD or SD, genlock and SDI are your best friend. They allow you to use a REAL switcher - no the MX70 isn't a real switcher. I'd recomend the XL-H1 over teh HVX for any live work, for this alone. (The HVX's strengthes are in the way it records, it's not a studio camera.
Heck, you could get 3 XL-H1s, genlock them and feed their synced composite feed to a Grass Valley 110 switcher form ebay (seen them for a grand, amazed if you have to pay more than 2 grand for one) and it would kick the pants off any one of the prosumer "switchers".

However here's my recomendation:
Call up Ross video and ask them for an offer on the Synergy 100 MD switcher. It'll switch that HD-SDI from those genlocked XL-H1s beutifully. - Then you'll have a HD-SDI output to record as you wish. - Probably into a decklink card or any HD deck. - Or just run it in SD mode untill you wish to upgrade to HD recording.
They make great switchers, I love 'em!

Linky for Ross: http://www.rossvideo.com/synergy/synergy100md_overview.html


- Mikko
Click to expand...

First off. Yes the MX70 is SD only but the closest in price for and HD switcher is around $70K which blows the budget out of the water. The MX70 isn't a Prosumer switcher. It does Genlock, SDI, Tally, STill Store, DSK with multiple keying. Have you ever demoed one? I hate it when people call gear crap when they've never even seen it.

Also your Synnergy is a nice switcher. But the Price Tag of $100K might be a tad over the $50K max that Rob gave earlier. Plus it is meant for live broadcast and Rob is looking for a way to ingest a multicam shoot for editing later. Why would he need cheesy overlays and wipes when he is doing that in POST. Please read the thread before you promote the one switcher or two switchers you happened to see at a tech show.
 
Easy there grasshopper.

I've worked with all the video mixers and switchers in question in the thread (thoguh only an SD ross, not HD).
NO profesional switcher has a framesync in it. Can you cut cleanly on the program bus on the MX70? no you can't. It still relies on a 2 channel TBC. That's not profesional gear. Sorry.

Give me a GVG over the Panny any day. My ciritsim over the MX70 is how it feels to operate. You can't run a profesional live switch on that. Hell, it's got an audio mixer in it for god sakes! It's great for editing, and prosumer live. Pro it is not.

Where'd you get the prices for the Ross from? (I'm curious)
Not sure what the Synergy 100 MD runs, but the SD version is $18k

- Mikko
 
mikkowilson said:
Easy there grasshopper.

I've worked with all the video mixers and switchers in question in the thread (thoguh only an SD ross, not HD).
NO profesional switcher has a framesync in it. Can you cut cleanly on the program bus on the MX70? no you can't. It still relies on a 2 channel TBC. That's not profesional gear. Sorry.

Give me a GVG over the Panny any day. My ciritsim over the MX70 is how it feels to operate. You can't run a profesional live switch on that. Hell, it's got an audio mixer in it for god sakes! It's great for editing, and prosumer live. Pro it is not.

Where'd you get the prices for the Ross from? (I'm curious)
Not sure what the Synergy 100 MD runs, but the SD version is $18k

- Mikko
Click to expand...

Mikk0,

The MX70 can receive genlock from a blackbust generator through the EXT. IN on the back. If that is absent, it then defaults to TBC like you say.

Ross Synergy SD-18K? OK, maybe bare bones. HD pricing is based off a quote from an install I did last year for uprgrading a switcher and all appropriate gear. Rule of thumb, when going from SD to HD multiply by 6 or 7.

Finally, your oppinion for the machine is subjective if you are discussing feel. You need to preface if your comments are fact or personal preferance. Not just say this is a piece of crap and isn't professional because I don't like the way it feels...

Rob has been using a VIDEONICS and you want him to jump to a Synergy off the bat? Also, just guessing that Rob is probably using the Audio mixer on videonics since there was no mention of audio earlier. He might welcome balanced inputs that can be mixed and ingested into FCP.

Also, Not the Grasshopper. Two years older than you...LOL
 
By Grasshopper I was refering to your jumping to conclusions that I was clueless, and your post count. No judgement or offense intended. :)

yeah, HD is pricy. I'll belive your quotes, I haven't checked on their HD pricing.

Hell, if you can make the MXsuck work, a real switcher is a snap. :thumbsup: The Synergy 100 is nice and small and friendly too - It's not lke I sugested a multi M/E board.

I will stand by by statement that it woudl be very hard to classify the MX70 as a profesional production switcher. Just wanna keep that distinction you know. Not that there's anything wrong with Pro-sumer. (heck, our beloved DVX and HVX are both prosumer cameras after all, and we know what they do :) )

I always sugest the best ;) And yeah, the MX70 will do fine for small stuff if you don't care about HD (I got the impression it was about HD from the cameras beeing discussed) I've also heard some reports of it locking up, so I'm not sure how much I'd trust it, that beeing said, I've never witnessed a lockup on it.

- Mikko
 
Dan,

Thanks, I have been looking at the Panasonic MX70 as a possible upgrade too. I am lucky enough to be within easy driving distance to either ProMax or EVS so I hope to be able to get some hands on time with the MX70.

I am going to the Apple/Panasonic Seminar tomorrow so I hope to see some solid green screen examples there. I'll let everyone know what I learn.

Thanks,

Rob
 
dvInsight said:
Dan,

Thanks, I have been looking at the Panasonic MX70 as a possible upgrade too. I am lucky enough to be within easy driving distance to either ProMax or EVS so I hope to be able to get some hands on time with the MX70.

I am going to the Apple/Panasonic Seminar tomorrow so I hope to see some solid green screen examples there. I'll let everyone know what I learn.

Thanks,

Rob
Click to expand...

No problem Rob. Good Luck to you!
 
Wow!

I step away to see what Apple announced and a bar fight breaks out over switchers! :)

First, I appreciate both points talked about here. Just knowing about products as high end as the grass valley stuff helps me think a few years out (since prices always come down and eBay for the used market) while I continue produce my bread and butter SD stuff to pay the bills.

Luckily for me, and it is probably just my ignorance, the little Videonics has worked well for me. My operation is small but effective. 3 cameras always on go into the switcher. Camera A is on a small jib with Telepromter. Camera B sits on sticks and is repositioned and focused per script. Camera C hangs from a schedule 40 pipe grid coming straight down to show music keyboard demonstraitions (Press this button to turn on Auto Accompaniment/This button to start background voices etc) and hand placement.

As far as operation goes sometimes I simply use the switcher to change cameras and do another take. Other times I do use the built-in crossfade. NEVER the other cheesy stuff. There are only one to three people in the studio during the shoot, and that includes the talent!

So I can improve my SD stuff with the MX70 by using component (if I go HVX) and I can probably solve my multi-camera HD potential by using a Kona type card with a multi-input breakout box (I think they make one) and just using that to switch my cameras. I can then just do my transitions in FinalCut. No big deal now.

I am really just trying to improve upon my Canon XL1s, add real green screen stuff without hours of trying to pull a clean matte (like with DV) and have HD capability for digital signage stuff that I am looking into.

So no more bar fights. I am trying to keep things simple, somewhat affordable and higher quality than I had before.

Thanks.

Rob
 
Rob,

LOL...I never thought of myself as a Barfighter.--A first for everything I guess.

Kona is a great card. Good luck to you!
 
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