24PN or 30Pn HELP!

M

MagicCat

Well-known member
HI All

OK, Im assuming this has been asked over and over, so if someone has a link to the to thread where the skeleton of the Proverbial "Horse that has been beat to death" lays, in a permanent-open-casket-wake, would be appreciated.

If not, here is my quandry. I cannot Edit or pull in my P2 720/24Pn/30pn footage into Avid 5.6. It looks LIke avid does not support it. That means all my over/undercrank stuff cannot be pulled in conventionally. My immediate solution has bee to play the clips back from the HVX into AVID VIA firewire and capturing them at 30i. (doing a live cap with no real time code from the camera) It is a real pain and defeats the Idea of instant editing with P2 media, let alone the loss of original time code.

Avid says it can transcode everything, but I have yet to get it to do work. Im sure it is something I am doing.


Any Ideas on how to import formats the HVX offers that Avid Does not support?

I know there is Raylight and Cineform. I dont want to go that route if I dont have to. They are great products and I admire the companies and entrapranuerial spirit. However, The p2 format has been around long enough that the MFR's who claim to be partners, should have stepped up to the plate by now.



Magic Cat
 
HVX 720/24pN files must be imported/edited in an Avid 720/23.976p project; HVX 720/30pN files must be imported/edited in an Avid 720/29.97p project. Undercranking/overcranking effects will be preserved.

If, on the other hand, you shot 720/24p or 720/30p non-native, these files must be edited in an Avid 720/59.94p project. Seems wrong, but the HVX works in non-native modes by adding pulldown to the resultant media clips to create 60p files. Avid will edit these with their "looks", but any overcranking/undercranking effects will be lost, as Avid doesn't recognize the flagged frames in a 720/59.94p stream.
 
Sorry it took so long for me to respond to my own question here. I later found out what you mentioned. I was also un-aware that the HVX does not send PN stuff down 1394. Explained allot too.

Thank you for your efforts to help.

MagicCat
 
I used "export to jpg (series)" to accomplish this with an HV20, should work the same way (I'm not at my NLE, so I cannot be as specific as I wish I could):

Create a project that matches what you shot. Bring in the clip and trim it. Export it to an image series in a temporary folder ("series" is a check box in the export image properties dialog box).

Open your 24P project. Import the image series by Ctrl-selecting all of the image files. Once imported, delete the image files (they will be very large).

You could also edit the image fies pre-import, using image morphing software to create additional frames and slow the process further. Combine it with a very fast dolly move and it could be a passable bullet time...

Bob
 
I am working with P2 files in Avid Xpress Pro (5.7.2) for the first time and I do not understand my export options. I had hoped to be able to export back to a P2 card using the camera. I shot 720p30N. I was confused by my Avid project options. They were "720;/23.976", "720;/29.97 HDV", "720p/50" and "720p/59.94". If I used 720p/59.94, I was told I needed to transform the files (they would not play when I did). Everything worked fine with 720p/29.97 HDV (as cbrougham writes) but I do not understand the "HDV" part as that is a GOP compressed high def format. I successfully edited the movie in Avid.

Is it possible to get it back to the HVX via firewire or USB? How? I tried the instructions from the Bootcamp disc 2 without success. If I can get this to work, I can show the movie in high def from the camera (preferred short term option). I also exported a QT ref file. Like MagicCat, I had audio but no video in QT. I open the movie in Avid DVD by Sonic with the same result (audio, no video). If I can get it to work in Avid DVD, perhaps it will work to burn to blu-ray. Any help will be appreciated. Thanks. David.
 
David,

I don't think you need to worry about the project format mentioning HDV in its name. Really all that's important is the frame height (720 lines), the frame cadence (P for progressive), and the frame rate (29.97, which is what you need for your 30pN footage). Your footage will be, as you found, cut natively as MXF with no transcoding going on. For example, you use a 480i/60 project to cut DV25, DV50, and 1:1 uncompressed media. Avid has the ability to mix all those recording formats in one timeline as long as the framerates match each other and match the project settings. Check this page at 24p.com for more HVX + Avid project settings.

As far as going back to P2: I haven't tried it, but it should be just a matter of selecting your sequence in a bin that you want to export, right clicking, and selecting Export > P2. However, I think there are some frame rates/formats that are not supported for this--it's possible that 720p/30 is one of those. Check the Avid help file; I believe it lists all workable formats.

With the QT ref export, check that "Same as Source" is selected. Not sitting in front of an Avid at the moment, but that option should be available for QT refs.
 
cbrougham,

Thank you very much for the guidance. I am getting closer.

I tried connecting my HVX-200 via firewire; it did not work. I then used USB and Avid recognized it as a P2 device. However, when I tried to export to device, it did not work saying, “Unable to convert between formats”. I tried mixing down the audio and video tracks to a stereo pair and one video track; it did not help.

I wonder if maybe the “HDV” does matter in my case. I did edit natively and the video plays fine on the time line. However, the only other “Export to Device” option is “Export to HDV Device” as a “MPEG Transport Stream File” or “*.m2t” file. The 24p.com website does show that 720p30N is supported, at least to import.

Is there a next step to try? Thanks. David.
 
Glad to help! Let's diagnose a little further...

I'm assuming you're working on a PC-based Avid. If so, you definitely need to be using the USB to transfer to and from the HVX. Firewire is for transfer on a Mac, or for doing live capture from the HVX on either platform. Basically, FireWire equals DV device, and USB equals storage device. You won't be "recording" to the HVX like you would if you were going to tape, but instead you'll be transferring files to the P2 cards like they're any old storage device.

Make sure you've got the P2 drivers installed on your machine. I'm assuming you already do, but never hurts to check. Also, verify that your HVX is in USB HOST mode. Seeing that the Avid recognizes it, this probably is already set.
Finally, check that you're in PC mode--this is the button that switches between CAM/DUB and MCR/VCR mode. You have to hold the button down while in MCR/VCR mode to switch into PC mode. Again, I think this is something that you already know, but we'll try to rule out everything.

You may be right about the "HDV" specification in the project type name. I thought the Help file talked about all the formats that are supported for export to P2, but it doesn't seem to outline that information. Accourding to the help file, you select your sequence in the bin, and go Clip > Export to Device > P2; from there it should pop up a dialog to set your output format. I'm guessing that this is what you did, but do verify.

There is one final thing you can try, depending on how long your project is and how big/many P2 cards you have. You can export a QuickTime reference of your finished edit (preferably your mixdown sequence that you've already created), and then start a new 720p/59.94 project and import the QT ref into that. What that will do is create a new 60fps clip that will retain the same 30p look that you shot natively. All the Avid will do is duplicate each and every frame to fill out the timebase of 60 frames per second. It'll play back and look exactly the same. From there, you could try doing your Export to P2--I have to imagine it'll work just fine in that project type.

Let me know if that helps any!
 
cb,

I will try your final suggestion this evening; it sound like it will work. The finished video is just 7 minutes long. I will let you know. Your other assumptions are all correct: using a PC, HVX in USB host mode, etc.

I am a little more convinced the "HDV" matters. This suggests that if I want to export back out to P2 cards, I may want to shoot in 60P (or 30P for increased light sensitivity) until Avid offers full support for 30PN though I like the longer record times in 30PN. Once I get past this hurdle (completed video on P2 card), I will work on getting the movie to blu-ray disc; working with 30PN material may not matter for that approach though, as mentioned above, I have not been able to export to a QuickTime or QT Ref file that will show video (I did not see the "same as source" option). I have a few more things to try in this regard and will come back if I get stuck again. Thanks again. David.
 
I'll check a few things about this when I get into the office, and let you know what I find. I'll run a few 720/30pN tests and see if I can replicate what you're seeing.

Ah, fun...
 
David,

Couple things to test, again, just to rule them out:

1) Try right-clicking your sequence in the bin and selecting "Export to Device > P2". See if that works.

2) For a QT ref, right-click your sequence, and select "Export". In the Export Setting drop-down box, select QuickTime Reference. Hit Options. You should be able to leave most of your settings as they are (Display Aspect Ratio of either DV 1280x720 or 16:9 square pixel didn't seem to make a difference in my tests, so you're probably safest to leave it as DV 1280x720). Do make sure that the "Use Avid DV Codec" box is checked. This will instruct the exporter to reference your media as Avid DV100 files. I just tested this, and if it's unchecked, it'll export as an Apple DVCPROHD QT Ref, which as you've found, will not display video.

Let's see where that gets us!
 
Bad news, good news and bad news. The first bad news is that I did a QT ref file exported from the 720p 29.97 HDV project and imported into a new 720p 59.97 project. It took just over an hour for the 7 minute file to import. However, the result was good audio and a white screen for video. The good news is that I was able export the movie to device (P2 cards in camera, file size 5.4GB). This took about 10 minutes. The final bad news was that while I could see a white thumbnail image, it would not even play the audio, "Cannot Play, Clip Error".

Perhaps the last problem to solve it to get a working QT ref file (any other suggestions?). I should also try shooting 720p 60 and see if I can complete the process without the need for the QT export and import though I still need to get the 30PN video back to the camera.

David.
 
cb,

Sorry, I composed my message above and sent it before I saw your latest message. I checked the "Use Avid Codex" box as you advised and it worked fine. Thank you very much. I will now try to import it again into a 720p 60 project and see if I can get it out to the P2 card. David.
 
Cool! Yeah, I kinda figured that might be the problem--Avid's infamous "white screen of death" usually is a result of a mismatched codec somewhere along the line. Avid is a QuickTime-based application, so not opting for the Avid DV codec will result in the Apple codec of the same flavor being used (ie Apple DV25 vs. Avid DV25, and so on). This will work (I think) if you're going to a QuickTime file, proper, as the file will be transcoded, but using a QT ref without the Avid DV codec results in the mismatch.

Let's see what happens with the export now...

colin
 
Colin,

Success. Once again, it took some time to import the 30PN ref file to the new 60P project but it then played fine on the time line and I was able to export to device. I had a slight scare when I tried to play the file on the HVX and received the, "Cannot Play, Clip Error" error message. However, I just went back to camera mode and changed the recording format from 30PN to 60P and then it played in the camera. Mission accomplished. Thank you very much. I'll try the process starting from 60P material; should be straight forward after what you have taught me. Next challenge will be to produce a blu-ray disc version and to downcovert to SD for a DVD version. At that point, I should have the technology tamed and be able to focus on editing. David.
 
Excellent. To be perfectly honest, I haven't messed around even one whit with the Export to P2 feature, so most of my suggestions there were based on conjecture and about 10 years of trying to play nice with Avid. All I can guess is that 720/30pN media is not supported for export to a P2 device, which is a bummer, but there's always a work around. When I get some more time (ha!) I'll play around with it some more and see if there's a way to get the native modes to work in this regard.

Now Bluray authoring--there's something I know nothing about! But making an SD version of your project is pretty much as simply as dumping your 30pN QT ref into Sorenson Squeeze (assuming you've got that for your MPEG-2 compressor) and going to town. I'm not familiar with the HD optical discs formats yet though, so I'll step aside and let someone else assist.

Good to know it worked though!

colin
 
Colin (and all),

Its been awhile but I was able to produce a Blu-ray disc that played well in one of six Blu-ray players at Best Buy (I bought that one though disappointed that the same compatibility issues we saw with DVD early on also occur with Blu-ray or that BD-R codes are not in many players). I was also able to make anamorphic DVDs that play in every player tried. Thanks for your help.

My new problems is getting DV25 from tape onto my Avid Xpress Pro (v 5.7.2) timeline. Avid recognizes the HVX200 in tape mode connected by firewire but won't let me capture since it is not DVC Pro HD MXF (the project is 720 59.97p). I just have the HVX200 camera. I do not think I can dub from tape to P2 cards. Is there a way to capture to the 720p project> Should I create a new 30i project and then import into the 60p project? I searched the list but came up empty. This seems like a routine issue for Avid editors. Thanks. David.
 
Never mind.

I figured it out. I started a new 30i project and captured from tape using the DVX200. From the 60P project I "opened" the 30i bin, copied the clips to a 60P bin and then transcoded to DNxHD 220 MXF. The images were fine but stretched so I applied Resize reducing horizontal size to 84% (720/1280 divided by 480/720 = .844). The new 30i clips play fine in the time line. David.
 
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