24pa in FCP 4.0 - lots of problems...

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I'm working on a video project which was shot in 24p advanced mode on the DVX100a. I captured the footage on my G4 powerbook(1 gig ram/external hardrive) at 23.98 using the advanced pulldown removal. I have read so many posts that I didn't see a problem in attempting to use 24pa, but I've run in to so many problems and it's difficult to find an answer because I'm not sure if it's FCP problems I'd be having regardless of my footage or if it's strickly a 24pa thing. Well, after 2 different Canon cameras could not successfully play my tape for capturing (the DVX was not mine), I finally got the video on my drive with a Sony. In FCP, I've set the playback to 2:3:2:3, as advised on numerous postings, yet have to render almost everything I place on the timeline! And once I do, if I want to slip a clip 1 frame forward... I have to render it again! It takes forever! And: slow-motion does not work, a strange "digital line/interference" shows up on my screen and my external monitor, but not on the camera's LCD screen. I thought the footage was doomed then I recorded some of it onto miniDV and the line was gone, but it sure can get in the way of editing.
Then, when I do record to miniDV, the sync. is off, but only at random occasions. This is my biggest concern. I felt prepared to edit in 24pa after reading a lot of articles online, but the whole process has been a huge headache, and it's due in two days!

thanks for any help you may have,
jk
 
Re: 24pa in FCP 4.0 - lots of problems...

I'm yet to have a successful 24PA capture that was actually captured using the advanced pulldown removal. My system just won't do it. In regards to it, I suggest capturing at standard NTSC preset, (or, a duplicate made with the anamorphic flag checked if your footage was shot with an adaptor or in squeeze mode)

Then use Cinema Tools to do a "batch reverse telecine" while you eat lunch. This is the only way I've been able to capture footage and it works great, with any camera or deck.

For Sequence settings.... which is most likely where your major problem is, what are you using... don't worry so much about the playback settings. It should have known it was 2323 if you used the proper "preset"

I would try the following:
go to to Audio Video Settings
720 x 480 NTSC DV (3:2)
NTSC - CCIR 601/ DV (anamorphic flag if it is)
None should already be selected for field dominance
Editing Timebase 23.98
QuickTime Video Settings
Compressor DV/DVCPRO NTSC quality at 100
under advanced
DV/DVCPRO NTSC at BEST
with Motion set to
23.98 (which will turn to 23.976 when you return to look at it)
no key frame
no limit

Video Processing Tab
Render in 8-bit YUV
process Max white at White

Render Control
Render and playback ALL selected
Render
Frame Rate 100%
Resolution 100%

After you confirm all those settings Create a NEW clip and drop some of your footage in. A major oversigt a lot of people have is that they will open FCP change settings and go about thier business. Well, if you do that, the original sequence that was there, did not take your new settings because it was created by default by FCP with different settings. Amazing how many people overlook that.

http://www.dvxuser.com/cgi-bin/DVX2/YaBB.pl?board=Clips;action=display;num=1087330962

Check out the clip... it's a 24PA Time Lapse... with slo mo... pretty hard to make look good unless you have a really good plugin... even then 24Frame rate sucks for slo mo... the best slow mo stuff is captured at very high frame rates and played back at normal frame rate. I'd suggest using 60i for your slow mo footage and converting it to 24P after creating the slow mo sequence.

Good Luck
 
Re: 24pa in FCP 4.0 - lots of problems...

Justin:

It sounds like your sequence is not set to 23.98 FPS. Make sure of that!

Also, the upgrade to 4.1 is free and simple. You may want to try that.

I (and others) have indeed been able to capture, edit, export 24PA in FCP 4.1 quite successfully... there are many posts of HOW... but any time you have to render "unprocessed" clips in the timeline you can be pretty sure that there's a mismatch between capture and sequence framerate. Depending on how bad your sync issues are, this may also clear them up.

I've never specifically set anything for pulldown on playback... if you have a 23.98 timeline, default settings do it automatically for playback. So, IN THIS ORDER:

1. Make a new sequence
2. Set sequence to 23.98 FPS
3. Drag your captured clip into the sequence

If your clip is 23.98, this should work. Changing sequence settings once there's a clip in it won't work.

-Barry
 
Re: 24pa in FCP 4.0 - lots of problems...

Justin,

If you'll check out Adam Wilt's site www.adamwilt.com under the dvx section, it clearly says that the pulldown cadence is 2:3:3:2, and not the 2:3:2:3 that you mentioned. That may be your problem.

I also use 24pa pretty much exclusively and have never had a problem.

HTH,
Chico
 
Re: 24pa in FCP 4.0 - lots of problems...

Sorry, this is a little off topic - jaredalv are you in Chico CA?

I went to school there and did a lot of video production for the University. I haven't been back in quite a while but I still have friends that work there.

I'd like to hear what your up to in Chico? ;D

~chuck
 
Re: 24pa in FCP 4.0 - lots of problems...

Hey, ChuckS. I'm a little south of Chico... like 2 hours. But I have friends that live there.

I actually got this name from my friends because I'm a 6'2" 240lb half-breed (mexican and honkee) that looks white and not mexican. So my friends got to callin' me Chico for whatever reason, and it's just kinda stuck.

I think Videography Mag's video school is held up there, isn't it? I think I saw a ad somewhere. So anyway, there's some people up there still into the video thing. Maybe some of your fellow alumni?

Adios,
Chico
 
Re: 24pa in FCP 4.0 - lots of problems...

I had the same problems as you did with my 24pa footage needing to be rendered once on the timeline. It turned out to be exactly what ullanta said, which was that my capture settings and my sequence settings were not the same. Once I made a new sequence and made sure it was 23.98, my footage went on there with no problem.

Hope you have been able to solve it!
 
Re: 24pa in FCP 4.0 - lots of problems...

[quote author=jaredalv link=board=FCP;num=1087466479;start=0#5 date=06/17/04 at 22:20:05]hit Alt+F+C to view my animated signature!![/quote]

Alright... I was suspicious about this one so I went and checked where that would lead me and I am glad I didn't follow your directions!

Very tricky! ;D :o ;)
 
Re: 24pa in FCP 4.0 - lots of problems...

HA!! Thanks Kyle. I just added this to my sigs in all my forums. toddcm, if you have a mac, then you can't do it. On a PC, Alt>F>C closes the current window.

It's provided quite a few laughs so far.

Chico
 
Re: 24pa in FCP 4.0 - lots of problems...

[quote author=jaredalv link=board=FCP;num=1087466479;start=0#3 date=06/17/04 at 14:12:53]
If you'll check out Adam Wilt's site www.adamwilt.com under the dvx section, it clearly says that the pulldown cadence is 2:3:3:2, and not the 2:3:2:3 that you mentioned.  That may be your problem.
[/quote]

I may be missing something here guys, but my understanding is that 2:3:3:2 is a standard pulldown, for example used for years in AfterEffects. It is also the 24p (F5 factory setting) on the DVX100. Another pulldown is 2:3:2:3 which Panasonic created as more efficient becasue you're not dealing with half frames the same way you have to do in the standard 2:3:3:2. This is the 24pa (F6 factory setting). So if he's using 24pa, then the pulldown should be 2:3:2:3, and not 2:3:3:2. Please correct me if I am mistaken, but I don't think I am. Adam Wilt's website has a great page explaining this stuff, with a very clear graphic representation of the difference between 24p and 24pa:
http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/index.html#24pRecording
 
Re: 24pa in FCP 4.0 - lots of problems...

Also correct me if I am wrong on this. Whether 24p, 24pa, 30p, or 60i, the tape is 60i. The pulldown is done in the camera and recorded to NTSC 60i tape. Well, I've only had my camera for about two months and haven't used it in FCP or FCE (I have both). But I assumed that I would be using a standard DV timeline. I thought going to a 24fps timeline was for people intending to transfer to film.

Am I right that as long as I plan on staying in the realm of video I can get away with using the standard DV timeline and not mess with other pulldown options? I thought for sure that I read in more than one place (including threads further back in this FCP section) before I bought my camera that this was the case.
 
Re: 24pa in FCP 4.0 - lots of problems...

24p = 2:3 pulldown. This is standard pulldown that is applied when film is transfered to video. It's also the standard applied to go from film DVD to your TV. This is the format that After Effects and other programs do when they insert or removestandard pulldown.

24pa = 2:3:3:2 This is the Panasonic pulldown format that requires updated software to deal with.

Yes you can edit 24p footage from the DVX100 in a normal DV timeline. If you plan to keep it in standard video format then you should consider shooting on 24p and not 24pa. 24pa is cleaner image (because it doesn't split an image over fields) but it's not as smooth visually as standard 24p.

Even when not going to film there are some advantages of editing 24 fps in a 24 fps timeline. If you want to dump to DVD so it can add the pulldown later. If you want to reduce the size of your movie files. (Standard video will have duplicate frames from 24p) If you want to do visual effects work (i.e. less frames) You will still have to do a 2:3 pulldown insertion to go to standard video tape.
 
Re: 24pa in FCP 4.0 - lots of problems...

Thanks, seems like I was right. However, I didn't realize that 24pa could get me in trouble. I think I should switch to 24p. I plan on shooting totally for playback on a TV, but would like to be able to dump a copy to DVD. Will I be okay shooting 24p all the way (I'm not concerned about file size on the DVD because nothing I would do would be beyond about a half hour).
 
Re: 24pa in FCP 4.0 - lots of problems...

[quote author=magicdavek link=board=FCP;num=1087466479;start=0#13 date=06/21/04 at 11:35:16]Thanks, seems like I was right. However, I didn't realize that 24pa could get me in trouble. I think I should switch to 24p. I plan on shooting totally for playback on a TV, but would like to be able to dump a copy to DVD. Will I be okay shooting 24p all the way (I'm not concerned about file size on the DVD because nothing I would do would be beyond about a half hour). [/quote]

Well, not quite "right" in everything.

Both 24p and 24pa are recorded as 60i, and can be editied in a normal (60i) DV timeline.  However, you'll have interlacing effects, and these can potentially become worse with various types of processing.

Both 24p (2:3) and 24pa (2:3:3:2) footage can be reduced to true 24p in a 24p timeline.  This will eliminate interlacing artifacts and improve the results of applying many effects and transitions.  FCP automatically adds a pulldown when playing back from a 24p (read 23.98) timeline through firewire (I think it's a choppy 2:2:2:4).  DVD players automatically add a 2:3 pulldown to 24p video on playback (except in progressive playback, another topic).

If you plan to use a 24p (well, 23.98!) timeline to get the benefits of working with progressive footage, then capturing in 24pa has advantages over 24p: basically, in 24p, some frames are encoded in an interlaced manner, and to recover them the capture software must uncompress two frames, blend the odd lines from one with the even lines from the other, and recompress into the final frame.  Thus, compression of the interlaced frame will add some "noise" from the ultimately unused fields, and the second compression of the "final" frame will also degrade the image quality to some extent.  24pa played back "raw" does not look as smooth, but it encodes the frames in such a way that no frames are encoded in an interlaced manner except one which is completely thrown away during 24pa capture... so than none of the final frames have either the issue of initial intertlaced compression or need for the second compression.

After the'yre in a 24p timeline, the pulldown for footage captured at 24p or 24pa is exactly the same, whether on DVD or from FCP - 24pa is exactly as "smooth" as 24p. The difference in smoothness (sometimes called "stutter") is only when playing back the 60i raw captured footage... once the pulldown is applied, aside from the sight quality differences discussed above, the footage from 24p and 24pa are exactly the same.

So, I'd say:
24pA on 23.98 timeline for 24P DVD, Film, or high-quality effects
24p on 60i timeline for speed and convenience for low-quality analog tape (VHS) final product

Hope this helps,
Barry
 
Re: 24pa in FCP 4.0 - lots of problems...

Thanks, Barry.

I'm upgrading to FCP 4.? (what ever is current - or are  they simply calling it Final Cut HD?) this week. I used to use FCP 1.2 in OS9. Now that I'm in OSX, I've been using FCE because my hardware wouldn't handle the FCP 4 upgrade. But I'll get one of the new Powerbook G4 1.33 GHz machines in the mail Wednesday or Thursday, so finally I'm back to FCP. I've delayed entering any footage from my 2 month old DVX100a until I got the upgraded software and hardware. All of this discussion is making me feel a little ill. I think of the hours I spent when I first did Mac based video in 1999 with Premiere 4.2. I've had many DV/Mac nightmares (shh, don't let the PC people hear that).

Anyway, I just assumed I'd stay in 60i for editing, but you're saying I should do a 24fps timeline and shoot in 24pa.

Bring on the Tylenol!
 
Re: 24pa in FCP 4.0 - lots of problems...

[quote author=ullanta link=board=FCP;num=1087466479;start=0#14 date=06/21/04 at 14:10:30]So, I'd say:
24pA on 23.98 timeline for 24P DVD, Film, or high-quality effects
24p on 60i timeline for speed and convenience for low-quality analog tape (VHS) final product.[/quote]

Hopefully not too dumb of a question: If my final product is going to be DVD or VHS, would you still say 24pa with 23.97 timeline? There is NO intention of ever going to film, but the entire project will be in 24p/pa (i.e., not 60i). The reason I ask is you put DVD output with 24pa and VHS with 24p (or was that just grouping according to output quality?).
 
Re: 24pa in FCP 4.0 - lots of problems...

[quote author=magicdavek link=board=FCP;num=1087466479;start=15#15 date=06/21/04 at 18:33:16]Thanks, Barry.

All of this discussion is making me feel a little ill. I think of the hours I spent when I first did Mac based video in 1999 with Premiere 4.2. I've had many DV/Mac nightmares (shh, don't let the PC people hear that).

Anyway, I just assumed I'd stay in 60i for editing, but you're saying I should do a 24fps timeline and shoot in 24pa.

Bring on the Tylenol![/quote]

I did my first 24pa project on FCP HD last week. Like they advised on the first page, once I got my captured footage and timeline to the same settings I had no problems with any editting. So pay attention to your settings and I think you should be fine...

By the way, I agree, Mac tries to promote this image of never having any computer problems (never freezing, easy integration between programs...). I have concluded that a computer is a computer and no matter what it is called it will have problems!
 
Re: 24pa in FCP 4.0 - lots of problems...

[quote author=magicdavek link=board=FCP;num=1087466479;start=15#16 date=06/21/04 at 18:38:46]

Hopefully not too dumb of a question: If my final product is going to be DVD or VHS, would you still say 24pa with 23.97 timeline? There is NO intention of ever going to film, but the entire project will be in 24p/pa (i.e., not 60i). The reason I ask is you put DVD output with 24pa and VHS with 24p (or was that just grouping according to output quality?).
[/quote]

Remember, once it's in the 23.98 timeline, there's no "p" vs. "pa" issue - that's all a pulldown issue during capture only.

Now, for output... there's no issue with DVD; as necessary, the DVD player will either play it as progressive or automatically add 2:3 pulldown as necessary. If you record from DVD to VHS, you'll get that 2:3 pulldown and have no problem.

If you want to record directly to VHS from FCP or a .dv file (to avoid any MPEG compression artifacts), it may be a little more complicated. On playback, for editing, FCP adds a pragmatic 2:2:2:4 pulldown, which I believe means that it just doubles a frame once in a while, which is not as nice as 2:3 (or even 2:3:3:2). So you may want to use some process to convert from 23.98 to 29.97 (60i). I've never done this myself... I'm nopt sure if you'd do it in FCP or Cinema Tools... if anyone can comment, please do!

I'd say, of course, do some tests - with p on a 60i timeline, pa on a 24p timeline, and with output from the 24p timeline...
 
Re: 24pa in FCP 4.0 - lots of problems...

Thanks.
Oh, one other thing. For my pending project, I plan on straight cuts and maybe a rare cross dissolve. You mentioned that the 23.97 timeline was better for effects. Does the fact that I don't intend on having any effects (it's a sit-com pilot) change anything? I mean, should I still use "pa" and avoid that 29.97 timeline?
 
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