24P or 24PA
- Thread starter Maxson
- Start date
Scottdvx100
Veteran
Re: 24P or 24PA
Use 24p if you just want the look of 24p but plan to edit it and final it like standard 29.97 video (60i). You can dump it to tape or to DVD. This mode looks like film transferred to video.
Use 24pa if you want to edit and/or output at 24fps for DVD or film.
24pa provides slightly higher quality since a frame hasn't been interlaced with another frame and compressed. 24pa also makes it easier to remove the pulldown and produce pure 24fps (23.98) If you plan to go to video tape or have a DVD burning program that doesn't support 24fps DVDs then you'll have to add pulldown and convert it to standard video.
Use 24p if you just want the look of 24p but plan to edit it and final it like standard 29.97 video (60i). You can dump it to tape or to DVD. This mode looks like film transferred to video.
Use 24pa if you want to edit and/or output at 24fps for DVD or film.
24pa provides slightly higher quality since a frame hasn't been interlaced with another frame and compressed. 24pa also makes it easier to remove the pulldown and produce pure 24fps (23.98) If you plan to go to video tape or have a DVD burning program that doesn't support 24fps DVDs then you'll have to add pulldown and convert it to standard video.
Laskyfilms
New member
Re: 24P or 24PA
So just to take this topic a little further - I do not need to worry about transfering the video I shoot to film but I do want maxium film look, in terms of movement and quality of image. I also would like to best solution for adding a bit of slow mo during Edit.
So what I do is: Shot 24p, pull it in with the advanced pull down, edit on a normal sequence, and output it at 29.97fps. I shoot both for broadcast and for use on DVD.
Does this seem to make sense?
Am I doing the right thing for getting the best slow mo?
Thanks
SL
So just to take this topic a little further - I do not need to worry about transfering the video I shoot to film but I do want maxium film look, in terms of movement and quality of image. I also would like to best solution for adding a bit of slow mo during Edit.
So what I do is: Shot 24p, pull it in with the advanced pull down, edit on a normal sequence, and output it at 29.97fps. I shoot both for broadcast and for use on DVD.
Does this seem to make sense?
Am I doing the right thing for getting the best slow mo?
Thanks
SL
Re: 24P or 24PA
..makes since to me, its the same thing i do.. but I do the DVDs @24p. and only the broadcast stuff at 29.976. for slowmo, if you know that your going to use a certain shot specifically for slowmo.. filp it over to 30p.. then you can stick that into a 24p timeline, and strech it out so that its taking up the proper amount of time.. it will give you a 25% slowdown using all original frames.(..you may have heard only 20% but it is 25%. 6 is 1/4 of 24.. so extending one sec of time on a 24fps timline by 6 frames = extending it by 25%.. i think the confususion comes from 6 being only 1/5 of 30 which is 20%.. anyway )from there you can use frame blending or other plugins to your hearts content .. if you use 60i and interpolate/blend fields, you will get very smooth playback at 50% speed while dumping half your resolution.. but it will likely still look pretty good for the most part. i find it to be perfectly acceptable for most stuff espescially small format viewing.. for filmout ..well id go the 30p route.. but it does look good espescially if theres some other effects going on to cover up the slight quality dip. anda again you can use any time warping plugin you want after doing this to slow it down even more. a nice cheap one that can give great results would be :
" motion perfect " by dynapel
hope this helps.
..makes since to me, its the same thing i do.. but I do the DVDs @24p. and only the broadcast stuff at 29.976. for slowmo, if you know that your going to use a certain shot specifically for slowmo.. filp it over to 30p.. then you can stick that into a 24p timeline, and strech it out so that its taking up the proper amount of time.. it will give you a 25% slowdown using all original frames.(..you may have heard only 20% but it is 25%. 6 is 1/4 of 24.. so extending one sec of time on a 24fps timline by 6 frames = extending it by 25%.. i think the confususion comes from 6 being only 1/5 of 30 which is 20%.. anyway )from there you can use frame blending or other plugins to your hearts content .. if you use 60i and interpolate/blend fields, you will get very smooth playback at 50% speed while dumping half your resolution.. but it will likely still look pretty good for the most part. i find it to be perfectly acceptable for most stuff espescially small format viewing.. for filmout ..well id go the 30p route.. but it does look good espescially if theres some other effects going on to cover up the slight quality dip. anda again you can use any time warping plugin you want after doing this to slow it down even more. a nice cheap one that can give great results would be :
" motion perfect " by dynapel
hope this helps.
Re: 24P or 24PA
Well, no. That clip runs at 30 fps at its normal speed. It's a 20% slowdown when it plays at 24p.
Well, no. That clip runs at 30 fps at its normal speed. It's a 20% slowdown when it plays at 24p.
Re: 24P or 24PA
Not that 5% of a few seconds makes a difference.
Not that 5% of a few seconds makes a difference.
Re: 24P or 24PA
i see what your saying.. but the timeline is 24fps not 30fps.. so a second of time in normal 24p is now taking 1 1/4 seconds.. or an additional 25% of the normal time. so it is 25% basically your taking 1 second of time.. and playing it back at 1.25 seconds of time.. this is due to the change in timeline framerate.. but yes if you werw to have a 36 fps clip and put it into a 30 fps timeline the extra 6 frames would slow the clip by 20% if it were stretched so each frame from the original clip took up one frame in the 30fps timeline thats the confusion i was talking about.
i see what your saying.. but the timeline is 24fps not 30fps.. so a second of time in normal 24p is now taking 1 1/4 seconds.. or an additional 25% of the normal time. so it is 25% basically your taking 1 second of time.. and playing it back at 1.25 seconds of time.. this is due to the change in timeline framerate.. but yes if you werw to have a 36 fps clip and put it into a 30 fps timeline the extra 6 frames would slow the clip by 20% if it were stretched so each frame from the original clip took up one frame in the 30fps timeline thats the confusion i was talking about.
Re: 24P or 24PA
No, but the *clip* is 30fps. If you play those 30 frames at 24 fps, per the timeline, you're slowing it down by 20%.
No, but the *clip* is 30fps. If you play those 30 frames at 24 fps, per the timeline, you're slowing it down by 20%.
Scottdvx100
Veteran
Re: 24P or 24PA
If you want to convert 24p to 24fps then you need to use Cinema Tools to remove pulldown. NOTE: 24p does NOT use advanced pulldown.
If you shoot 24pa then use the remove advanced pulldown on capture settings. You can also capture normally and then do a tools > remove advanced pulldown on the clips but it's simpler just removing them when captured.
Normal video:
24p (scene setting 5) -> capture -> 29.97 sequence. Edit normal, output normal.
24 fps video
24p (scene file 5) -> capture -> Cinema Tools reverse telecine -> 23.98 sequence
or better:
24pa (scene file 6) -> capture with remove advanced pulldown -> 23.98 sequence
23.98fps sequence -> 29.97fps video, setup playback to 2:3:2:3 if your system can keep up.
If you want to convert 24p to 24fps then you need to use Cinema Tools to remove pulldown. NOTE: 24p does NOT use advanced pulldown.
If you shoot 24pa then use the remove advanced pulldown on capture settings. You can also capture normally and then do a tools > remove advanced pulldown on the clips but it's simpler just removing them when captured.
Normal video:
24p (scene setting 5) -> capture -> 29.97 sequence. Edit normal, output normal.
24 fps video
24p (scene file 5) -> capture -> Cinema Tools reverse telecine -> 23.98 sequence
or better:
24pa (scene file 6) -> capture with remove advanced pulldown -> 23.98 sequence
23.98fps sequence -> 29.97fps video, setup playback to 2:3:2:3 if your system can keep up.
Re: 24P or 24PA
lol.. were both wrong anyway.. 24-- 30.. 20%.. 25%..
. I assure you it is slowing time by 25% in the way we are thinking.. its not just adding extra frames to the timeline.. its also changing the rate of speed that the proginal 30fps are played back at.. they used to display 1 every 1/30th of a sec.. now 1 frame is displaying only every 1/24th of a sec. so the frame overall playback time is slowed by 25%
you have to look at it this way.
24 frames play in one second on a 24p timeline.
30 frames play in one second on a 30p timeline.
different amounts of frames.. same amount of actual time. 1 second.
if you take the 30 frames from a 30 fps timeline and put them in a 24p timleine frame for frame.. you will end up filling one second of time with the first 24 frames. the remaining 6 frames will fill up 6 frames of the next second
..which is only 1/4 of a second since it takes 24 frames to play a full second. 6 is 1/4 of 24. so then if you look at your timeline.. you are using
1 1/4 seconds.
now in the original 30p file the 30 frames only took one second..
but keep in mind that that is because it was playing 30fps.. were only using 24 frames per second now.
-the result is now that 30 fps are stretched out to play over 1 1/4 seconds.. this is 25% longer than the original 30 fps took to play in the original 30 fps timeline. 1 second of actual time is now playing over 1 1/4 seconds.
but heres the kicker we have now slowed 1 sec of time to 1 1/4 seconds.. a slowdown of 1/8th speed or the equivilent of 12.5% slower. what we have done, is make the clip play 25% longer than its original time, but to do so, we are playing it at 12.5% slower than its normal speed.. not 20 or 25.. lol
so in actuality it is a slowdown of 12.5% weird eh.
but playint it at 50% normal speed takes 200% as much time to play.. not 150% ..and playing it 25% slower makes it play back in 150% its normal time.. so a playback of 125% normal time is only a slowdown of 12.5%
lol.. were both wrong anyway.. 24-- 30.. 20%.. 25%..
. I assure you it is slowing time by 25% in the way we are thinking.. its not just adding extra frames to the timeline.. its also changing the rate of speed that the proginal 30fps are played back at.. they used to display 1 every 1/30th of a sec.. now 1 frame is displaying only every 1/24th of a sec. so the frame overall playback time is slowed by 25% you have to look at it this way.
24 frames play in one second on a 24p timeline.
30 frames play in one second on a 30p timeline.
different amounts of frames.. same amount of actual time. 1 second.
if you take the 30 frames from a 30 fps timeline and put them in a 24p timleine frame for frame.. you will end up filling one second of time with the first 24 frames. the remaining 6 frames will fill up 6 frames of the next second
..which is only 1/4 of a second since it takes 24 frames to play a full second. 6 is 1/4 of 24. so then if you look at your timeline.. you are using
1 1/4 seconds.
now in the original 30p file the 30 frames only took one second..
but keep in mind that that is because it was playing 30fps.. were only using 24 frames per second now.
-the result is now that 30 fps are stretched out to play over 1 1/4 seconds.. this is 25% longer than the original 30 fps took to play in the original 30 fps timeline. 1 second of actual time is now playing over 1 1/4 seconds.
but heres the kicker we have now slowed 1 sec of time to 1 1/4 seconds.. a slowdown of 1/8th speed or the equivilent of 12.5% slower. what we have done, is make the clip play 25% longer than its original time, but to do so, we are playing it at 12.5% slower than its normal speed.. not 20 or 25.. lol
so in actuality it is a slowdown of 12.5% weird eh.
but playint it at 50% normal speed takes 200% as much time to play.. not 150% ..and playing it 25% slower makes it play back in 150% its normal time.. so a playback of 125% normal time is only a slowdown of 12.5%
taubkin
Veteran
Re: 24P or 24PA
[quote author=Maxson link=board=Events;num=1092370477;start=0#2 date=08/13/04 at 08:57:14]Thanks, but how do you remove the pulldown? I'm running FCP 4.5[/quote]
Select it in your bin and go to TOOLS>REMOVE ADVANCED PULLDOWN
hah, and you tought it were going to be difficult....
If you had a 24fps clip and would make it 30fps, you would be augmenting the speed by 20%, but when you take a 30fps clip and turn it into 24fps, it will have 25% less frames per sencond, being 25% slower. You just use the original to know how much 100% is and not the final...
[quote author=Maxson link=board=Events;num=1092370477;start=0#2 date=08/13/04 at 08:57:14]Thanks, but how do you remove the pulldown? I'm running FCP 4.5[/quote]
Select it in your bin and go to TOOLS>REMOVE ADVANCED PULLDOWN
hah, and you tought it were going to be difficult....
If you had a 24fps clip and would make it 30fps, you would be augmenting the speed by 20%, but when you take a 30fps clip and turn it into 24fps, it will have 25% less frames per sencond, being 25% slower. You just use the original to know how much 100% is and not the final...
Re: 24P or 24PA
..the simple way to calculate a time/speed change is not by the FPS.. just lay it out frame for frame in the new timeline, and see how much total time it takes. then figure out what percentage of time the new time is against the old amount of time it used to take to play. IE something which used to take 1.5 secs to play, and now takes 3 secs to play has been slowed to 50% for a playback time of 200% the original. it doesnt matter hown many frames go by in that amount of time.. its only the relation of the new playback time to the realtime recording that matters. if the new file plays back the one second of the original real time in 4 seconds.. it playing it at 25% speed. regardless of whether those new 4 seconds show the new slo mo in 10 fps or 100000 fps.. its still only slowing time to 25%.
..the simple way to calculate a time/speed change is not by the FPS.. just lay it out frame for frame in the new timeline, and see how much total time it takes. then figure out what percentage of time the new time is against the old amount of time it used to take to play. IE something which used to take 1.5 secs to play, and now takes 3 secs to play has been slowed to 50% for a playback time of 200% the original. it doesnt matter hown many frames go by in that amount of time.. its only the relation of the new playback time to the realtime recording that matters. if the new file plays back the one second of the original real time in 4 seconds.. it playing it at 25% speed. regardless of whether those new 4 seconds show the new slo mo in 10 fps or 100000 fps.. its still only slowing time to 25%.