24p (n) sucks

P

planetearth

Well-known member
Okay, as we all know - on this forum and others, the suggestions have always been - use 24p (a) for film output and 24p (n) for broadcast output. Well my productions tend to always be for broadcast so I have shot 24pn for a number of long-form docs, commercials, etc. But, going to broadcast and going to DVD are 2 different animals (especially once all those interlace lines show up on progressive). So, my question is - why the hell do I do 24pn? On one doc I intercut a lot of 60i footage, but in the end I applied Nattress filter to convert that to 24p anyway. If I shoot 24pa and transfer to tape, interlace will be reintroduced for broadcast anyway - right?

Currently, I am about to lock picture on a long-form doc that I shot on 24pn and I fear the eventual DVD output. It is low res right now (on Final Cut Pro) for off-line so I have to recapture for online. Would it be possible to recapture the clips, transfer them to a bin, output, then put individual clips through cinema tools, then re-lay them on to a 23.98 timeline? I'd hate to put all the full length tapes through cinetools (about 100 hours of footage) for I believe it would make my teeth bleed.
 
Using 24pA for film and 24p standard for broadcast is a rule of thumb that's been around since the DVX was introduced . . . and it's wrong. It's a myth that some of us have been trying to stamp out for a long time.

Or, at least, it's a gross misinterpretation of what you should actually do.

The only question to ask yourself is how you're going to edit. If you're going to edit in 24p, always shoot 24pA, regardless of your intended output. If you're going to edit in 29.97, always shoot standard, again, regardless of your intended output (though editing in 29.97 will take some direct output options away). And if you CAN edit in 24p, you SHOULD edit in 24p, again, no matter what your planned output is.

If you've already shot 24p standard and plan to cut in FCP, then you have no choice -- you have to use Cinema Tools to do a reverse telecine if you want to edit in 24p. Whether or not you can do it with individual clips, ask in the FCP section.
 
David Jimerson said:
If you've already shot 24p standard and plan to cut in FCP, then you have no choice -- you have to use Cinema Tools to do a reverse telecine if you want to edit in 24p. Whether or not you can do it with individual clips, ask in the FCP section.
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ahh... sorry, noob question... what's wrong with shooting in 24p and editing on 24p timeline in FCP? I'm editing my short right now and we just assumed that since it was shot on 24p we should set the sequence settings as 24p...

this is bugging me...
 
FCP can't remove standard pulldown, only advanced pulldown. You have to remove standard pulldown manually by doing a reverse telecine in Cinema Tools.
 
David Jimerson said:
FCP can't remove standard pulldown, only advanced pulldown. You have to remove standard pulldown manually by doing a reverse telecine in Cinema Tools.
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in plain English? does it affect the image quality? otherwise it seems to be fine.
 
thanks for the pointer David... please tell me if I get this right...

24P standard is designed for a conventional NLE system, at 29.97 timeline. so footages derived from 24P standard should be edited on 29.97, even with FCP.

24PA, on the other hand, is meant to be edited with a system capable of doing the advance pull down to fit onto a 23.98 timeline, which would give you better quality and a wider variety of output options.

what the article did not say, or maybe I missed it, is what happens if you accidently put 24P standard onto 24P timeline... would it lead to jittery images? I think thats what I'm having right now.
 
Don't get TOO hung up on the "better quality"; it's true to an extent, but in DV, it's all low-resolution and weak color space, anyway.

In any case, you seem to have it about right.

Some NLEs can accept 24p standard footage on 24p timeline with no problem. My understanding is that FCP can't, but if you want to know exactly what happens, you could 1) ask in the FCP section or 2) try it and see. I suggest 2.
 
thanks David... we already have a rough cut done on 24fps. it looks a bit jittery to me but I'm not certain... I did a quick cut on my own FCE with some faster pace shots and they seem better... but again I'm not certain.....
 
David Jimerson said:
FCE or FCP? FCE has no 24p timeline.
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sorry.. the rough cut was with FCP on 24p. I did some tests on FCE to compare and to my eyes I think the FCP footage is jittery...
 
THanks David, I wish it was dispelled for me before I painted myself in a corner. But at least this confirms what has been troubling my brain for some time.
 
so david,

basically, your telling me that all this time, while I've been shooting 24pN and cutting with vegas, I might as well have been shooting 24pA?
 
NewYorkLion said:
so david,

basically, your telling me that all this time, while I've been shooting 24pN and cutting with vegas, I might as well have been shooting 24pA?
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If you're using Vegas 4.0b or later, yeah.

Fortunately, though, Vegas handles 24p advanced and 24p standard identically, allowing full pulldown removal and native 24p editing using either, so you probably never really saw a difference. Assuming you were editing in 24p, of course.
 
David Jimerson said:
If you're using Vegas 4.0b or later, yeah.

Fortunately, though, Vegas handles 24p advanced and 24p standard identically, allowing full pulldown removal and native 24p editing using either, so you probably never really saw a difference. Assuming you were editing in 24p, of course.
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I guess this is why some people prefer Vegas... they don't have to worry about what I'm dealing with right now.

FCP remove the pulldown for 24pA in program so we can edit it "natively" on 24p timeline.. but FCP does not do the same for 24pn so if we want to edit 24pn on 24p timeline we have to use Cinema Tools to do the pulldown removal there, right? if we don't remove the pull down then we have to edit on 29.97, right?
 
David Jimerson said:
That's the yin and the yang of it.
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I'll assume that's your way of saying "that's correct.", cuz you are using the yin yan expression wrong. :)

Thanks alot man! I learned alot here. I will now proceed to relieve my editor of his duties. :violent5:
 
I am?

"That's the long and the short of it."

"That's the in and the out of it."

"That's the yin and the yang of it."

Doesn't seem off to me . . .
 
Well my productions tend to always be for broadcast
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Why bother w/ the 24p thing, just shoot 30p if it's not going to go to film.

Actually this might be a little off the subject, if so PLEASE ignore!

I've read that 30p cannot go to film. Does that mean it's impossible for 30p footage to go to film, or that it's just a bad choice of a shooting format if you're going to go to film.
 
David Jimerson said:
I am?

"That's the long and the short of it."

"That's the in and the out of it."

"That's the yin and the yang of it."

Doesn't seem off to me . . .
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hahaa! "yin yan" is a symbol for the balance between 2 polar opposites. on a deeper level it implies that there is always some black in white and there is always some white in black... you probably know this.

guess contemporary culture hijacked the concept of the yin yan and twisted its' meaning. :nads:
 
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