24p, 25p
- Thread starter meeroo
- Start date
Hi meroo,
I do work in UE so we have Pal. I don't have a 100Be but an HVX 200e.
There was a strange story about 24F or P when the hvx european version came out first: a friend of mine that needed to produce an HD TV series for a HD satellite channel bought one of the first camera that came out and guess what: it had 24P also. But a month later a camera guy that worked for him bought another one that didn't have the 24p. So they asked Panasonic distributor and they were told that Pana took about 24p from the sw/firmware 'cause many euro guys complained about the mess they had with that. What a shame!!
If it's absolutely and rationally understandable that Ntsc version have 60i/p and 30p while the Pal has 50i/p and 25p, there is no reason, no meaning or relation with the different TV standards they are related to when it comes to 24p/f, as it's and has been always a film/movie standard even in europe.
It was all about bloody TV that changed the unique and universal shooting standard since the invention of film cameras: 24f.
To complete the issue there is also another stupid human being story about HD and SD: we all know, I hope, that in SD standards there is not only a different framing but also a different resolution. in the NTSC world you have 525 vertical lines interlaced, in PAL 625 (that the reason why the conversion from Pal to Ntsc is better than the opposite) the there is also a different color scheme. The Ntsc 60i/30f depends not on a choice but from the electrical system it use a frequency of 60Hz, while in Pal world we have 50Hz so 50i/25f as fields and frames.
Now in the last 10 years or more there is been a long heavy discussion on having a common HD standard but again, as all the thing related to the Old and New Continent, they finally decided to relating it to the old SD ones, but with a difference from SD: they have the same resolution 1920x1080. That's all...by now...
So, again, everything is related to the rich and powerful men of the TV world. if you are in Pal you have to shoot 25 or 50. But I think and I'm pretty sure that is gonia change in a while: in the IP TV who needs different standard as we can watch shorts, movies, series, on a computer screen that doesn't care of TV standards as we do already? If you check the Thread for HVX samples and footage or shorts we, in the Pal world, can see great works in 24/25/30/50/60 without any issue!!!!!
Hope to be useful and enough clear. Just one little advice as you are in Pal you can better transcode 25f to 24f as you loose a frame or some fields than doing the opposite where it has to "create/invent" one more.
Take care and shoot!!
Rap
I do work in UE so we have Pal. I don't have a 100Be but an HVX 200e.
There was a strange story about 24F or P when the hvx european version came out first: a friend of mine that needed to produce an HD TV series for a HD satellite channel bought one of the first camera that came out and guess what: it had 24P also. But a month later a camera guy that worked for him bought another one that didn't have the 24p. So they asked Panasonic distributor and they were told that Pana took about 24p from the sw/firmware 'cause many euro guys complained about the mess they had with that. What a shame!!
If it's absolutely and rationally understandable that Ntsc version have 60i/p and 30p while the Pal has 50i/p and 25p, there is no reason, no meaning or relation with the different TV standards they are related to when it comes to 24p/f, as it's and has been always a film/movie standard even in europe.
It was all about bloody TV that changed the unique and universal shooting standard since the invention of film cameras: 24f.
To complete the issue there is also another stupid human being story about HD and SD: we all know, I hope, that in SD standards there is not only a different framing but also a different resolution. in the NTSC world you have 525 vertical lines interlaced, in PAL 625 (that the reason why the conversion from Pal to Ntsc is better than the opposite) the there is also a different color scheme. The Ntsc 60i/30f depends not on a choice but from the electrical system it use a frequency of 60Hz, while in Pal world we have 50Hz so 50i/25f as fields and frames.
Now in the last 10 years or more there is been a long heavy discussion on having a common HD standard but again, as all the thing related to the Old and New Continent, they finally decided to relating it to the old SD ones, but with a difference from SD: they have the same resolution 1920x1080. That's all...by now...
So, again, everything is related to the rich and powerful men of the TV world. if you are in Pal you have to shoot 25 or 50. But I think and I'm pretty sure that is gonia change in a while: in the IP TV who needs different standard as we can watch shorts, movies, series, on a computer screen that doesn't care of TV standards as we do already? If you check the Thread for HVX samples and footage or shorts we, in the Pal world, can see great works in 24/25/30/50/60 without any issue!!!!!
Hope to be useful and enough clear. Just one little advice as you are in Pal you can better transcode 25f to 24f as you loose a frame or some fields than doing the opposite where it has to "create/invent" one more.
Take care and shoot!!
Rap
I have some thoughts about 25p,
That looks very much identical to 24p, but there are some motions sometimes that looks just "too" smooth.. Its hard to get little jitter into too smooth motions, so 25p can cause problems if you want pure of pure film motion to all of your footage.
In Vegas, if I render 25p footage as 24p or 23.976, it causes little stop to end of every second and looks awful. How that can be fixed? Will it be same looking when going from 25p to 24p film? Thats pretty nasty looking if it will be..
Why Panasonic cant put 24p to European cams? What problems it may cause? In here they still broadcast movies that are filmed in 24p, and those films looks just perfect.. Why Panasonic cant put samekind of system to make it work, so we could also shoot 24p..
As a editor, I can see theres a meaningful difference when making 2 or 4 frames cut difference into a movie. But, that difference cant be seen so clearly with naked eyes, but its still there.. And to me, theres a difference in 25p and 24p's 1 frame also.. Not huge, but a difference.. Usually it can be seen most clearly, when trying to do as real as can black & white movie. Its not on that black & w hite effect, its on peoples movements...
Also, in USA DVX (and in HVX), if footage is recorded as 30p, it looks littlebit slow motioned? So is 25p actually a bit slower looking than 24p? And if its bit slower looking, shouldnt it make more smoother movements also, as slowed down footages does?
But yeah, 25p still rocks and beats out 50i>25f, but sometimes I wouldnt say that its real looking as 24p is.
That looks very much identical to 24p, but there are some motions sometimes that looks just "too" smooth.. Its hard to get little jitter into too smooth motions, so 25p can cause problems if you want pure of pure film motion to all of your footage.
In Vegas, if I render 25p footage as 24p or 23.976, it causes little stop to end of every second and looks awful. How that can be fixed? Will it be same looking when going from 25p to 24p film? Thats pretty nasty looking if it will be..
Why Panasonic cant put 24p to European cams? What problems it may cause? In here they still broadcast movies that are filmed in 24p, and those films looks just perfect.. Why Panasonic cant put samekind of system to make it work, so we could also shoot 24p..
As a editor, I can see theres a meaningful difference when making 2 or 4 frames cut difference into a movie. But, that difference cant be seen so clearly with naked eyes, but its still there.. And to me, theres a difference in 25p and 24p's 1 frame also.. Not huge, but a difference.. Usually it can be seen most clearly, when trying to do as real as can black & white movie. Its not on that black & w hite effect, its on peoples movements...
Also, in USA DVX (and in HVX), if footage is recorded as 30p, it looks littlebit slow motioned? So is 25p actually a bit slower looking than 24p? And if its bit slower looking, shouldnt it make more smoother movements also, as slowed down footages does?
But yeah, 25p still rocks and beats out 50i>25f, but sometimes I wouldnt say that its real looking as 24p is.
MovieSwede
Well-known member
Movies are filmed at 24P and 25P but if you watch a PAL DVD it will be 25P no matter if it was filmed 24P or 25P.
Just look at the HDX900 it has all...from pal to ntsc or 24.
So as I said it use to have 24p originally but then they changed based on some compliants...I wonder who!!! I heard of camera guys very upset with setting at the beginning...but they might be the one that want just push the record button...and unfortunately there are many of them around here in UE...I've worked with a couple of steadycam guys with the DVX100 but they never proposed to me to work on settings (gamma, cinema mode, etc). It's much easier to get the money with the minum work...
I hope that someone find a way to update the firmware to the old setting!!!
So as I said it use to have 24p originally but then they changed based on some compliants...I wonder who!!! I heard of camera guys very upset with setting at the beginning...but they might be the one that want just push the record button...and unfortunately there are many of them around here in UE...I've worked with a couple of steadycam guys with the DVX100 but they never proposed to me to work on settings (gamma, cinema mode, etc). It's much easier to get the money with the minum work...
I hope that someone find a way to update the firmware to the old setting!!!
Joshua Provost
Veteran
Omni,
The difference between 24p and 25p (one frame) is not perceptible. It may have been available on the HVX for direct to P2 recording, but it won't ever be available on a miniDV camera, because there is no standard pulldown supported by cameras and NLE's for 24p inside a 50i stream. There is for 24p in 60i.
Josh
The difference between 24p and 25p (one frame) is not perceptible. It may have been available on the HVX for direct to P2 recording, but it won't ever be available on a miniDV camera, because there is no standard pulldown supported by cameras and NLE's for 24p inside a 50i stream. There is for 24p in 60i.
Josh
If 25 and 24 difference is not perceptible, why there is a noticeable jitter stop in end of every second, when renderin 25 as -> 24? If its all the same if that frame is there, or is not, it shouldnt make such a big effect on to the picture?
This might not effect on anything, but when I capture with Vegas capture, it sometimes says after capture "Average framerate: 25.17fps"..Can dvx record over 25 frames / second even in 25p ?
This might not effect on anything, but when I capture with Vegas capture, it sometimes says after capture "Average framerate: 25.17fps"..Can dvx record over 25 frames / second even in 25p ?
Joshua Provost
Veteran
You can't just convert 25p to 24p. Most NLE's will probably just drop a frame, which will cause a jerking motion. Your procedure for converting from 25p to 24p is wrong. You need to actually slow the clip down and pitch correct the audio as well. There is a process for it, do a search, but you can't usually do it accurately in an NLE.
The point is that is you shoot 24p and 25p and watch the footage back, you wouldn't be able to tell which is which. Why the need to have 24p if you have 25p? There's really no need to convert it.
The point is that is you shoot 24p and 25p and watch the footage back, you wouldn't be able to tell which is which. Why the need to have 24p if you have 25p? There's really no need to convert it.
onmi said:
That's the rate at which it was capturing, not the rate of the footage -- before or after capture. Don't know exactly why it varies, but it never affects anything.