NorBro
Major Contributor
Ya...and that's worth $6000? lol.
It's also 800Mb/s via Motion JPEG.
Not like it's ProRes 422HQ.
1dx ii 3 min recording limit?
- Thread starter camarade
- Start date
Ya...and that's worth $6000? lol.
It's also 800Mb/s via Motion JPEG.
Not like it's ProRes 422HQ.
ProRes is 10-12-bit 422-444 intraframe DCT (Apple's customized MJPEG)
Canon's 1DX II MJPEG is 422 8-bit intraframe DCT. ProRes' primary advantage is faster decoding (if it were possible to capture raw output of the 1DX II. 10-bit would be useful if shooting a (real) log format).
Shooting DCI 4K (4096x2160) 60fps in ProRes 422 HQ is over a gigbit/s larger than the 1DX II's ~800Mb/s at 1,886Mb/s! Gotta drop down to ProRes 422 LT at 875Mb/s to get close to what Canon is doing (which is probably higher quality due to only using 8-bits/pixel re:compression artifacts and possibly a higher quality encode (which is slower to decode)). That said, the latest build of Premiere Pro on the GTX 980ti and GTX 1080 handle the 1DX II 4K60 pretty well for basic edits (just a couple streams at a time- still nowhere near as many as ProRes).
While I haven't done pixel peeping, I'd expect Canon's H.264-based intraframe .MXF codec providing 10-bit 422 and 12-bit RGB 444 to be better than ProRes, since it's based on H.264 (variable macroblock size + more recent etc.). The 12-bit RGB 444 is a bit taxing on Premiere Pro still (only available at 1080p on the C300 II, though I use it now over the "4K" at 422 10-bit (scaled up and post-sharpened works better on green screen along with almost 2x smaller files). The .MXF format would have been very cool if available on the 1DX II, but since no "C" badge...
For video only use if size/weight/"attention factor*" not a factor, the C200B makes a better argument now over the 1DX II.
*In BH/LA sometimes it's good to not be using a "video camera" in public re: attention. Even a small camera/cell-phone on a mini-steadicam/gimbal can be too much.
NorBro
Major Contributor
"Simple can be harder than complex. It's true, which is why it's hard to express your ideas simply. Anyone can write long, confusing sentences. Anyone can speak in esoteric jargon. But simplicity is worth pursuing because it 'can move mountains',". -Steve Jobs
---
I understand you completely, but not every post needs to be coming from the engineer that's inside of you...especially when you've been incorrect. lol
---
I understand you completely, but not every post needs to be coming from the engineer that's inside of you...especially when you've been incorrect. lol
AndreeOnline
Veteran
EDIT: got interrupted while writing, so a bit overlap here regarding replies above.
No, just looking at a sigle feature, it would be a pretty hard sell.
On my desk, next to my 1Dx mkII sits my latest addition: the BMD P4K. It does 4K60 to raw. Or ProRes HQ. And it's got a massive display/monitor build into the camera. And it allows you bypass expensive media and record directly to a small T5 SSD.... All good stuff, for only $1295. It's pretty crazy.
But what does all that matter when you need an actual camera?
In your post above, you throw a little 'lol' in there as well. As if the price is generally laughable, again. Sort of back to square one. I thought we had come to the conclusion that value for price is dependent on what feature set a user needs? For some the camera might be massively overpriced (just compare to P4K) and for some it might make total sense?
What is the optimal positive outcome of driving the "price nail" down?
---------------------
Regarding the codec: I think it's good.
ProRes 422 for 4K DCI in 25p targets 524 Mbps (around 1000 Mbps for 50p) , so it's the equivalent size—but ProRes is 10 bit of course.
Both codecs are essentially "motion jpeg", as ProRes is also a DCT codec. What I appreciate about the MJEPG in the 1Dx mkII is that it's intra frame, 422 and visually free from compression artefacts when viewed normally.
Naturally, we'd all rather see 10-bit for the same file size, but I'd rather have a bit larger files that are clean, compared to smaller files with compression issues. As long as people don't compare Long GOP format sizes with intra frame, it's all good.
No, just looking at a sigle feature, it would be a pretty hard sell.
On my desk, next to my 1Dx mkII sits my latest addition: the BMD P4K. It does 4K60 to raw. Or ProRes HQ. And it's got a massive display/monitor build into the camera. And it allows you bypass expensive media and record directly to a small T5 SSD.... All good stuff, for only $1295. It's pretty crazy.
But what does all that matter when you need an actual camera?
In your post above, you throw a little 'lol' in there as well. As if the price is generally laughable, again. Sort of back to square one. I thought we had come to the conclusion that value for price is dependent on what feature set a user needs? For some the camera might be massively overpriced (just compare to P4K) and for some it might make total sense?
What is the optimal positive outcome of driving the "price nail" down?
---------------------
Regarding the codec: I think it's good.
ProRes 422 for 4K DCI in 25p targets 524 Mbps (around 1000 Mbps for 50p) , so it's the equivalent size—but ProRes is 10 bit of course.
Both codecs are essentially "motion jpeg", as ProRes is also a DCT codec. What I appreciate about the MJEPG in the 1Dx mkII is that it's intra frame, 422 and visually free from compression artefacts when viewed normally.
Naturally, we'd all rather see 10-bit for the same file size, but I'd rather have a bit larger files that are clean, compared to smaller files with compression issues. As long as people don't compare Long GOP format sizes with intra frame, it's all good.
Last edited:
AndreeOnline
Veteran
I started my reply above and got interrupted and missed the posts in between... so be it, water under the bridge.
What I've always done, since I've always used FCPX as my footage manager, is that I've had my files auto converted to ProRes. In terms of file size it's been very close to 1:1. They have then become my new 'master files'.
Curiously though, for the last 2 years or so, and I don't know if this is due to gfx card changes, MacOS changes, Resolve changes or a combination of everything, MJPEG plays completely fine just the way they are.
AndreeOnline
Veteran
NorBro
Major Contributor
I mentioned it may not be overpriced for someone (in their own mind) who needs that exact camera, but as long as I keep getting quoted and brought back into the conversation, I will share my own personal opinion that it's massively overpriced (in my own mind).
It's okay...we can disagree.
Andree, did you ever buy a 1DC for $12K (or whatever it was) and thought it was a good deal? lol
---
One factor that may be causing a disconnect is I've noticed older gentlemen whom have invested $40K-$50K-$60K into cameras throughout their careers have different outlooks on prices which is of course more than understandable.
It's okay...we can disagree.
Andree, did you ever buy a 1DC for $12K (or whatever it was) and thought it was a good deal? lol
---
One factor that may be causing a disconnect is I've noticed older gentlemen whom have invested $40K-$50K-$60K into cameras throughout their careers have different outlooks on prices which is of course more than understandable.
AndreeOnline
Veteran
Yes, you did. But you still fall back to mostly LOL-ing when people come out with a different opinion. In my mind the gap between LOL and IMHO is pretty big. And those kinds of remarks are also some of the small things people can use to pick up on true intent, since it's quite different "talking" on a forum relative to face-to-face.
Yep. But that was... hmmm... 2013? It was a more unique camera back then. I used that to my advantage (since I was curious abut the camera) and sold a 3 day project to a client that financed it 85-90% of the way. That made the entry easier. That's the sort of product (like a RED camera) that I don't think hobbyists should buy with "hopes" of "maybe make some money someday".
Some products generate money, instead of costing you. The trick is to know beforehand what is what.
NorBro
Major Contributor
I 'lol' a lot in my posts if you've ever read anything else by me.
I am actually laughing out loud when I get quoted and asked but which camera can shoot 4K/60p @800Mb/s like that's the be all & end all.
I also said 'in my opinion' like 10x throughout this thread.
Trust me, I'm biting my tongue in what I really think about the camera and its price.
I am actually laughing out loud when I get quoted and asked but which camera can shoot 4K/60p @800Mb/s like that's the be all & end all.
I also said 'in my opinion' like 10x throughout this thread.
Trust me, I'm biting my tongue in what I really think about the camera and its price.
AndreeOnline
Veteran
I don't see any need for that at all. If someone says they think XX due to YY, everyone can draw their own conclusions and correctly attribute the right amount of value/insight to the posts.
But I think you're getting some push back because many of us are just seeing the XX. And then the statements become more universally valid. And then some of us who don't agree say so and try to explain why.
So what are some of your YYs? For example, I don't think we've come up with a camera that offers the same things for a better price, yet.
NorBro
Major Contributor
Well, quite frankly I didn't see a need for you to jump on me from the beginning, lol.
I mean at the end of the day, Andree, I never questioned anyone. If I wasn't the first to respond and saw 10 replies before me saying the camera is totally worth every penny, I wouldn't quote each person and question them why.
I said from the beginning that it was my opinion the camera was not worth the money and then was jumped on with validations. 'Many of us' was only you and jcs and my argument with jcs turned into a color debate.
I never asked for your opinion; I didn't start the thread. You should have answered to the OP, not to me. I don't care.
I just feel like you don't like my opinion and it sounds like it's bothering you that I don't think the camera is worth it, but who cares what either of us think!
I mean at the end of the day, Andree, I never questioned anyone. If I wasn't the first to respond and saw 10 replies before me saying the camera is totally worth every penny, I wouldn't quote each person and question them why.
I said from the beginning that it was my opinion the camera was not worth the money and then was jumped on with validations. 'Many of us' was only you and jcs and my argument with jcs turned into a color debate.
I never asked for your opinion; I didn't start the thread. You should have answered to the OP, not to me. I don't care.
I just feel like you don't like my opinion and it sounds like it's bothering you that I don't think the camera is worth it, but who cares what either of us think!
AndreeOnline
Veteran
I don't jump on people.
You said the camera was overpriced in today's world without giving any specific reason. Since I feel "overpriced" is a relative term, I simply asked you to explain compared to what.
I hardly think that qualifies.
I'm simply going to assume you don't need the whole feature set and that your analysis of the camera's value is based on that.
I do understand that writing "Hey guys, I don't need half the features, so I think the camera is expensive" is a non-starter as most people reading wouldn't know how to respond, other than possibly: doh!
NorBro
Major Contributor
I encourage you to use my entire post if you quote me instead of one line here and there when you respond...just puts everything into context.
Quoting only one line like above not only makes me look like an imbecile, lol, but isn't fair to me without showing the rest of what I said.
---
It's of course always about the features, man.
Of course I don't think it's worth the price for the features it offers and/or lacks.
But if I provided you a thorough breakdown on why I personally don't think it's worth it, you'd ask me again to play your game and show you another camera that does everything for the price tag and it's never ending.
You can take any camera and ask anyone to show you another camera that does the same for the price.
Although some will have similar feature sets, they are still different - for better or for worse - because they are created by different companies.
It's like...show me another camera that does what the a7III does for the price. The GH5. The EOS R.
You can choose any camera from my list on page 1 or from the entire B&H catalog.
There will always be something either missing, something new, or something that is better or worse!!!
Quoting only one line like above not only makes me look like an imbecile, lol, but isn't fair to me without showing the rest of what I said.
---
It's of course always about the features, man.
Of course I don't think it's worth the price for the features it offers and/or lacks.
But if I provided you a thorough breakdown on why I personally don't think it's worth it, you'd ask me again to play your game and show you another camera that does everything for the price tag and it's never ending.
You can take any camera and ask anyone to show you another camera that does the same for the price.
Although some will have similar feature sets, they are still different - for better or for worse - because they are created by different companies.
It's like...show me another camera that does what the a7III does for the price. The GH5. The EOS R.
You can choose any camera from my list on page 1 or from the entire B&H catalog.
There will always be something either missing, something new, or something that is better or worse!!!
AndreeOnline
Veteran
I always break out the quotes I'm actually responding to, to increase clarity. I would never cut a sentence short or exclude words to twist the meaning of things people say—that would be changing context. My only tip is to only write things you actually mean and stand behind—I'm assuming that is what we all do anyway.
If you gave a thorough breakdown, I don't see why anyone would ask questions? My guess is that people would just understand?
But, I think we've come full circle here. Perhaps even a few times over. To me, the discussion was about fleshing out the concept of "overpriced" to de facto help someone interested in the camera make the right decision.