18mm lenses.

DavidBeier

DavidBeier

Veteran
I love the 18mm focal length for full wide shots when working on a crop-sensor camera. It's about the same FoV that I got used to on the HVX200 and EX1 when they were zoomed all the way out.

So why exactly is a fast 18mm prime so hard to find? I understand why they're rare for vintage lenses as, on a full frame camera, 18mm is wider than most people need. But for APSC sized sensors, why are there so few options? The only one I've seen is the Zeiss 18mm and it's only f3.5. I was always under the impression that zoom lenses tended to cost you light and weren't as fast as primes. Why is it that Canon, Sigma, and Tokina can all make a zoom with an 18mm focal length at an F2.8 but Zeiss can't make a prime 18mm faster than f3.5?

For that matter, I'm curious about all the films that are shot on Super 35 (or Red/Genisis/Alexa/ect). The format size on all of those is roughly the same as APSC and I've been told that a standard kit of Primes usually starts with an 18mm (then 24mm, 35mm, 50mm, and 85mm). Are the 18mm lenses in those kits also 3.5 or slower? What do major productions do when they've been shooting a scene on an f2 or f2.8 and suddenly they have to switch to the 18mm for a really wide shot and are limited to f3.5? Seems like a pain for night shoots or indoor scenes with natural light.

Sorry if this is a dumb question as I'm still very new to photography and lens choice.
 
Having recently been kitting up my FS100 Ive turned into an 18mm geek !

Firstly the APS/S35 size has not been around for long in the stills world

APS/Consumer/ and zoom lenses all kind of happened at the same time

So all 18mm prime still lenses are desinged to cover the Full FF35 (5d) chip

They are extremely wide on that chip size and are therefore hard to egnineer

An 18 F3.5 prime cost around $1500

Now the 18-XX zoom lenses you are seeing dont cover FF35 so are much easier to engineer needing half of the image circle - remember - you dont need that FF35 image circle on a S35 chip

Hence the comparitive ease to manufacture and low cost of lenses like the 17-55s from canon and nikon and others

To me Still glass makers have not taken the S35 size seriously, they have focussed on kit lenses

There is a hole in the market for a value S35 18mm lens - Samyang should listen

It would be an easy make compared to a FF 18mm lens

So your choices..

To get a zoom like a 17-55 canon nikon or tokina or a FF35 prime

Now those zoom lenses are all a bit crap, flare, distortion especially distortion at the wide end

With an 18mm stills prime you are taking the sweet spot from some serious Fullframe glass .. but paying twice the money

I was going to buy a nikkor 17-55 2.8 G but ended up going for a super rare 18/F4 nikkor prime for $600 on ebay.. its cheaper and has a much more cine feel - longer focus throw and mechanical iris and being full frame will work on my 5dmk2 too

Was that the right choice .. I dont know yet

Now Im not a fan of 55 so I think either with a 17-55 or an 18 Ill still change lenses a lot because I shoot a lot at 70

I try and minimise lens changes, so Im going with an 18 and a 35-70

I reckon I get more glass for my money compared to a 17-55 and an 85/2 or something

Now.. cine lenses

the S35 format has been taken seriously by the cine world for many years and glass with that coverage is plentiful but extremely costly

For example 18mm T1.4 made by cooke .. for $10 or $15k maybe more

Many production use lenses like this, but are renting not buying.

Red make an 18 1.4 or similar for an 'affordable' $6k

There are also a couple of schneider 18 1.4s around on ebay very occiasionally

Hope that helps

I blogged here.. http://dslr4real.tv/index.php?option=com_zoo&task=item&item_id=88&Itemid=1

SMM
 
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Well, if you have the money, Zeiss Super Speeds and Master Primes are made in a very fast 18mm. I don't think that the Ultra Primes are available in an 18mm.
 
As noted above, the Schneider 18mm is a great lens - and very affordable. I have used it often. Coincidentally, it opens to f1.8.
 
morgan_moore said:
Now.. cine lenses

the S35 format has been taken seriously by the cine world for many years and glass with that coverage is plentiful but extremely costly

For example 18mm T1.4 made by cooke .. for $10 or $15k maybe more

Many production use lenses like this, but are renting not buying.

Red make an 18 1.4 or similar for an 'affordable' $6k

There are also a couple of schneider 18 1.4s around on ebay very occiasionally

Hope that helps

I blogged here.. http://dslr4real.tv/index.php?option=com_zoo&task=item&item_id=88&Itemid=1

SMM
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The Cooke 5/i T/1.4 18mm is more like $22,000
The Cooke S4 T/2 18mm is around $18,000
The Cooke Panchro/i T/2.8 18mm is around $9,000.

Master Primes do have an 18mm lens, so Zeiss does make other 18mm (including superspeeds, back in the day). I'm not sure about standard speeds. Funny. Maybe Zeiss just makes 18mm for T/1.4 lenses and skips it for the T/2's. No reason for that, but coincidentally seems to be true.

If it means anything at all, cinema lenses are better built and have more accurate focus marks. They are also *usually* better designed and have less distortion because when you move a wide lens, the distortion is much more apparent than in a still frame. Distortion in motion is very noticeable. For what it's worth.

Also, Red does make a 18mm RPP, but it's not a 1.4... It's a T/1.8, and it is just less than $5,000.

The Leica summilux-C set will include a 18mm T/1.4 lens. Right now you can only get the set of 8 together, which is around $180,000! :)


Also, on your blog, you mentioned the Cooke S4 18mm T/1.4... all S4's are T/2's. The Cooke 5/i's are T/1.4's. ;)
 
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Ryan

Im sure you are 100% correct, my knowledge of prime lenses that are more than $10k each is not hands on :)

I know all I need to know.. I cant afford them

The general point is that these cine lense are not ownable by most .. but do exist

I do have good hands on knowledge of stills lenses however having owned lots over the years

I guess our OP is interested in what to do with $2000 or less

I think that boils down to a 17-50ish zoom or an 18 prime for the S35 format, I opted for the latter

Sam
 
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Cooke or Schneider or both needs to unbox the old tiny arri-mount lenses and put them back into production with modern glass and coatings with simple adapters for the PL and mirrorless systems. Maybe license them to Samyang or cosina to get them made fairly cheap. These would be perfect for Af-100, fs-100 and whatever is coming. I can understand the standardization around the huge housings on studio films with matte box and follow focus and the like, but when a prime lens is bigger than a camera body it is really quite ridiculous.

With the numbers of these cameras currently moving, I don't understand why no one is making appropriate lenses for them.
there is no reason why an asian manufacturer couldn't produce a classic schneider for $1000 or less, there isn't much more to them than the voitlander's. A 5 lens prime kit for $5K or less should be the goal to match the demand for this class of camera.

There is really no point in having affordable camera bodies if you still need to invest the moon in lenses.
 
Totally agree "There is a hole in the market for a value S35 18mm lens - Samyang should listen"

A side note is the voigtlander 21mm - its tiny cheap and well made, the low cost comes from the fact that it is not retrofocal becuase rangefinder lense cameras dont need to avoid a mirror so it is a far simpler design than a typical DSLR 18 or 20

I didnt get that because its a little long and I have a full nikkor set so wanted to keep focus throw direction consistent

You mention Cosina I tried (and returned) their 19-35 zoom - it was mechanically horrible (sloppy focus), but cost me 49UKP - it focuses nikon way and has a proper iris so could be worth owning to a shooter on a tight budget.. its back on sale here.. http://www.ffordes.com/product/11081210033981

S
 
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morgan_moore said:
Ryan

Im sure you are 100% correct, my knowledge of prime lenses that are more than $10k each is not hands on :)

I know all I need to know.. I cant afford them

The general point is that these cine lense are not ownable by most .. but do exist

I do have good hands on knowledge of stills lenses however having owned lots over the years

I guess our OP is interested in what to do with $2000 or less

I think that boils down to a 17-50ish zoom or an 18 prime for the S35 format, I opted for the latter

Sam
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I totally understand. I know the OP is not interested in cinema lenses because if he had $18,000 for an 18mm prime, he'd probably not be frustrated in his search. I just wanted to clarify facts, so those who read this thread actually know that 18mm Cooke S4's are T/2 and that Red Pro Prime 18mm is T/1.8. And etc, etc. Just keeping the facts straight.
 
morgan_moore said:
I was going to buy a nikkor 17-55 2.8 G but ended up going for a super rare 18/F4 nikkor prime for $600 on ebay..
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Why not the 18mm f/3.5? Is the f/4 better? And do you have an opinion on the expensive but super awesome looking Nikkor 15mm f/3.5? Downside is it doesn't take filters. It takes rear filters but I'm not sure how that works and whether you can get ND filters for the rear?
 
Searcher said:
Why not the 18mm f/3.5? Is the f/4 better? And do you have an opinion on the expensive but super awesome looking Nikkor 15mm f/3.5? Downside is it doesn't take filters. It takes rear filters but I'm not sure how that works and whether you can get ND filters for the rear?
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I got the F4 version because it was there .. these a rare lenses and prices are climbing .. it was a few hundredd cheaper than the 3.5 version

The F4 version has a longer focus throw and looks a little more cinematic physically

The F4 version however has an 86 (or at least large) front ring

F 3.5 version has 77 front thread

Rationally considering that I have a lot of other 77 fronted lensed and a lot of 77ND filters - I would consider that the 3.5 version may be more practical as part of my lens set and may look to trade to that version in time

I did not consider the 15mm - I already have a 14mm 2.8 - the reason I dont like the 14 is its physical mass and the complexity of ND ing it - no rear filter option - and protection from unpleasant flare

(I use the 14 for stills in 'emergencies' like large group shots indoors)

I missed the option for rear filters on the 15 - I think that is worth considering - my 16 2.8 fish has rear filtration as does my 10.5G - it seems an elegant solution but I have not used it for ND

======

David

Sure E-mail Samyang - a lot of smaller folks love feedback - Id like to think that a lot of products come from feedback - certainly thses boards and e-mailing influence product tracks

S
 
Thanks for your thoughts morgan.

I have the Nikkor 20mm 2.8 and it's great Not sure I can justify getting an 18mm although every mm helps I guess. I seem to have become addicted to buying nikon glass...


morgan_moore said:
I got the F4 version because it was there .. these a rare lenses and prices are climbing .. it was a few hundredd cheaper than the 3.5 version

The F4 version has a longer focus throw and looks a little more cinematic physically

The F4 version however has an 86 (or at least large) front ring

F 3.5 version has 77 front thread

Rationally considering that I have a lot of other 77 fronted lensed and a lot of 77ND filters - I would consider that the 3.5 version may be more practical as part of my lens set and may look to trade to that version in time

I did not consider the 15mm - I already have a 14mm 2.8 - the reason I dont like the 14 is its physical mass and the complexity of ND ing it - no rear filter option - and protection from unpleasant flare

(I use the 14 for stills in 'emergencies' like large group shots indoors)

I missed the option for rear filters on the 15 - I think that is worth considering - my 16 2.8 fish has rear filtration as does my 10.5G - it seems an elegant solution but I have not used it for ND

======

David

Sure E-mail Samyang - a lot of smaller folks love feedback - Id like to think that a lot of products come from feedback - certainly thses boards and e-mailing influence product tracks

S
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morgan_moore said:
I missed the option for rear filters on the 15 - I think that is worth considering - my 16 2.8 fish has rear filtration as does my 10.5G - it seems an elegant solution but I have not used it for ND
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Do you know how to search for rear filters on B&H etc? Are they certain sizes? I can't seem to find any info on the rear filters, like what size they are or whether they even have ND versions.
 
JPM Photography said:
also, if you are ok having a slightly wider 16mm focal length, the Tokina 11-16 is an AWESOME piece of glass.
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Is it actually any good?

I have a tokina 17-55 - it is pretty flarey, and a bit flat also the focus travel is very short its also distorted at 17mm

The 17-55 is/was a very very useful lens (on my now sold 7d) due to the zoom range - but not actually really any good

When I say not good I think it is still probably the best wide-normal zoom in cost/quality/function stakes

I would think the 11-16 is again useful giving super wide on a budget, even cheap (in cine lenses world) when rehoused

How does it actually perform when considered as a 16mm prime compared to an old manual glass I wonder?

Certainly worth considering of course

S
 
morgan_moore said:
Is it actually any good?

I have a tokina 17-55 - it is pretty flarey, and a bit flat also the focus travel is very short its also distorted at 17mm

The 17-55 is/was a very very useful lens (on my now sold 7d) due to the zoom range - but not actually really any good

When I say not good I think it is still probably the best wide-normal zoom in cost/quality/function stakes

I would think the 11-16 is again useful giving super wide on a budget, even cheap (in cine lenses world) when rehoused

How does it actually perform when considered as a 16mm prime compared to an old manual glass I wonder?

Certainly worth considering of course

S
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It is actually very good. Duclos does great re-fits of these lenses and there is a several month wait to get one. There is a great PL version for sale over on RED User right now.
 
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