F35: 12-bit Uncompressed is Possible!

Very clever.

The SR-R1 remains a valid option for a virtually loss-less 12bit compressed SRMaster file. While the retail price tag was quite expensive, they can be found for far less today.

But this looks good too.
 
Hopefully the Odyssey will get an upgrade soon to bring it in line with the Gemini - meaning 12-bit 4:4:4 DPX recording straight from the camera without the need for a multiplexer. And at that point hopefully you'll have the option for the prores as well.

Very excited to unlock the most that's possible from this camera!
 
Very interesting! Just when I was beginning to think the F35 discoveries were stopping.

The 7Q can also record a C500 12bit properly, but not the F35. I bet the same thing is going on, if the F35 signal was put through the Aja LUT box first and then into the 7Q, I bet it would recognize the 12 bit F35 signal.

If CD could do what the LUT box is doing internally in the 7Q then we would have the ultimate F35 recorder.
 
The more I look into this, the more I am sure the 7Q will work with the LUT box in 12 bit also. Shouldn't the 7Q offer the best of both worlds? Uncompressed and Prores. After reading your post, I was sold on the Gemini, however it lacks prores? What compressed 10 bit formats can you record with the Gemini? I still want to have a recorder that can shoot a reasonable data rate, but I see the appeal of starting with completely uncompressed images from the F35.

If the 7Q does work with the Aja LUT, you have made a very big F35 discovery. Despite what we say, we all can't stand 422 when we know there is more to get from this camera. A few pages back someone posted about how the 24p signal was actually a 24psf signal and exporting from final cut could cause more grain in the image. I have found the whole 24p within an interlaced signal to be very troubling out of fear of someone messing up the signal in the post workflow. PSF is an outdated framerate and perhaps the reason the F35 has such a unique signal. Being able to make this signal progressive with the LUT box is the answer to making this camera work with modern recorders. I would bet the PSF has something to do with a few 7Q users getting a weird double image in their recording.

Looking at it, the LUT box could be permanently attached on the back of the IF box between the camera plate.

Great more money to spend! I think you have made a great discovery for F35 users. It's still cheaper to get a Gemini and keep the Hyperdeck for Prores over the 7Q. The 7inch screen and 12bit 4444 are the appeals of the 7Q, although if you're going the extra effort for 12 bit, why not go uncompressed too.
 
The LUT box is just another thing to power and another thing to fail in the chain. I've done the multiplexer game with a PIX and I personally deemed the juice not worth the squeeze.

However, with the O7Q - if it is able to read and process the 12-bit (it works in 10bit right now) that would mean we could swap between the 12 bit 444 24p (or 30p if you'd like) out put and the 50p 422 (10-bit) seamlessly with no interruptions. This would be huge for me. Now I have to unconnect one of the SDI cables if swap.

Theoretically this should work for both DPX and Prores if they can implement it - so one could choose whatever they wanted for the project. Would make me a very happy camper!
 
Ebrahim Saadawi said:
What matters in the end, is there a visual difference in image quality between 12bit and 10bit?
Click to expand...

you have to factor in the codec as well in any comparison and what the lack of compression does for an image. so its not clear cut entirely.

I did a compressed vs uncompressed test from the Sony F3 back in the day and I would take the uncompressed image over compressed any day if I could afford to eat the disk space requirements. But with a good codec there might not be as much a difference, although in my test XDCAM, ProRes and even DNXHD did not come close to the artifact-free image of uncompressed - all from the same camera.

Codec aside, the bit-depth (10 vs 12) will go a long way in grading. If you need it that is.
 
yachacha said:
The more I look into this, the more I am sure the 7Q will work with the LUT box in 12 bit also.
Click to expand...
Yes, I can almost bet with complete certainty that the LUT box will be able send the Odyssey a 12 bit signal it can recognize. They seem to be based on similar software builds.

The LUT box is just another thing to power and another thing to fail in the chain. I've done the multiplexer game with a PIX and I personally deemed the juice not worth the squeeze.
Click to expand...
I haven't had any problems with the LUT/Gemini combo. Together they pull about 13 watts (Gemini ~8w, LUT box ~5w)
I had a custom cable made to run the LUT box from the accessory port of the F35 so it's pretty streamlined. As a solid state device I don't really worry about its failure rate in the chain. The Gemini works as a confidence monitor/recorder, so if I'm seeing a signal on the monitor then I am recording it.

Ultimately I was originally leaning towards getting a second monitor for focus pulling + Prores backup. Wanted to get an Odyssey, but then I saw the new Atomos Shogun at NAB. The screen is very sharp at 1900x1200. Touch screen responsiveness and menus were awesome (not laggy), and the RGB parade and waveform seemed much clearer and less blocky than the Odyssey. So the Shogun might be another option to consider for those looking to simply record ProRes.
 
FYI, at the end of the blog article you can find a few test DPX files (not the best samples, but you will get the idea)
Try zooming in, or denoising, or stretching the colors and you will see what a difference 444 12 bit makes in sharpening, sampling noise, or grading.
Every pixel is truly resolved, captured and measured, so the data is not interpolated and gamma can be stretched very easily.
 
Great news!

Do you have to have the Canon RAW license activated on the Gemini or should it work with the stock (firmware updated) Gemini?

I encountered the same thing you described too: the Gemini displays the 12-bit image but said it didn't support recording the signal. Now let me find myself an AJA Lut box
 
How do the Gemini SSDs hold up with the new bitrate? Apparently the image size goes from ~7mb/frame to nearly 12mb/frame. That's almost double the data rate.
 
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