1080/24p

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beatnik

Member
Hey, new user here so please be patient. I've been reading this forum for a while now so I am pretty up to date on most of the goings-on around the HVX200, but I can't say that I've got as firm a grasp on some of the technical details as some...

My question is about 1080/24p - are we CERTAIN that this camera will do this and, if so, how many minute(s) will we be able to capture per GB?

Panasonic's P2 website has a little graph detailing expected shooting lengths for the 2GB, 4GB, AND 8GB cards at DVCPRO/DV, DVCPRO-50, DVCPRO-HD (1080/60i), and DVCPRO-HD (720/24p), but it doesn't list DVCPRO-HD (1080/24p).

https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/sales_o/p2/p2card/index.html

I was a little surprised to see that 720/24p takes up less space than DVCPRO-50. If in fact this camera WILL record in 1080/24p, do we have any idea how much footage we can expect to get out of an 8GB card? So far it seems to double for every downgrade in shooting quality [ie. DVCPRO-HD (1080/60i) will shoot 8 minutes of video on an 8GB card, DVCPRO-50 will shoot 16, and DVCPRO/DV will shoot 32], but factoring in the different frame rates seems to skew the issue a little.

Anyone have any clarification on this?
 
1080/24P will be put into the 1080/60i stream. So 1 minute/GB is what it will give you.

Yes 720P is more compressed than DVCPRO50 but it will have more res. so it likely that you wont be bothered with it. The varicam uses the same format.
 
MovieSwede said:
1080/24P will be put into the 1080/60i stream. So 1 minute/GB is what it will give you.
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See that's what i'm refering to. What does that mean? What, exactly, is the 1080/60i "stream?"
 
Why would anybody shoot 1080P if they gonna release the movie in 720P or 480P.

Or maybe they gonna use a lot of slow motion. Then it easier to shoot 720 all the way.

as for 1080/24P in a 60i stream. Because DVCPROHD doesnt "support" 1080P they shoot 24 frames/sec and then put them in 30 frames then put those in the interlace stream. When you later edit, you then can take out the individual 24 frames from the 60i stream
 
MovieSwede said:
Why would anybody shoot 1080P if they gonna release the movie in 720P or 480P.

Or maybe they gonna use a lot of slow motion. Then it easier to shoot 720 all the way.

as for 1080/24P in a 60i stream. Because DVCPROHD doesnt "support" 1080P they shoot 24 frames/sec and then put them in 30 frames then put those in the interlace stream. When you later edit, you then can take out the individual 24 frames from the 60i stream
Click to expand...
I suppose that's my question, why would anyone release the movie in 720p or 480p if they have the option to release it at the highest possible quality, which would be 1080p? Can you do slow motion or variable frame rates at 1080 as well?

As for the process of removing frames in post for 1080p, would that be a manual thing that you would have to do or are there programs out there for that?
 
beatnik said:
I suppose that's my question, why would anyone release the movie in 720p or 480p if they have the option to release it at the highest possible quality, which would be 1080p? Can you do slow motion or variable frame rates at 1080 as well?





As for the process of removing frames in post for 1080p, would that be a manual thing that you would have to do or are there programs out there for that?
Click to expand...

you might want to shoot in 720p if you intend to deliver to a 720p only network, or if you want to use the variable framerates.. its only in 720p.. or if you want 60p instead of 60i because in 1080 you only have 60i.. in 720p you have 60p. and other progressive framerates through the "variables" as well plus it save your hard drive and P2 or whatever media you using storage room .. when shooting 720p at 24p or 30p it only uses the data required to store 30p fps or 24pfps meaning only 50mbps for 30p and apx 40 mbps or whatever for 24p as deffered to shooting 720p at 60p which uses the full 100mbps.. but shooting at 1080 res since everything is encoded into a 60i stream your always using 100mbps. so youd get more than double the recording time shooting 720 24p as deffered to shooting 1080 24p onto the same size drive or card.

most nles perform the reverse telcine (pulldown) of the 24p material from the 60i stream automatically.
 
Just to clarify the clarification...

1080/24p has been certain since this camera was first announced. no doubt at all there.

The way that 24 frames are put into 60 fields is "pulldown", similar to how a feature film shot at 24fps is telecine'd to 60i video. The NLE then just uses a "reverse pulldown" to reconstruct those original 24 frames, (with no quality loss whatsoever, BTW).

This is just the same as how the DVX100 fits 24p into 60i - same idea.

The only really big question out there is EXACTLY what the CCD sizes are, how the 1080/24p is derived from that CCD size, and EXACTLY what the quality of the conversion is. If the HVX-200, like the Varicam, is natively 720p, and the 1080p is produced by pixel-shifting and uprezzing as many have speculated, then we won't really be able to judge image quality until the camera is released. It could be stunning, it could be so-so. That's one main reason why someone might choose to shoot 720 instead of 1080. If there's no quality gain to shooting 1080 (there probably won't be a quality loss), why do it?

Also, as MovieSwede said, if you're going to use slow-mo. The "12 or so" variable frame rates will only be available in 720, I believe. The current brochure doesn't even specify which framerates will be available. It only specifies 720p/60p, 30p, 24p and 1080/60i, 30p 24p.

My suspicion is that Panasonic decided early on to include 1080 modes into the camera to compete with the Sony FX/Z-1. People who are need to deliver a 1080i master, say to a network that requires it, can say they can shoot in 1080/60i. Also, shows that might have shot CineAlta at 24p can shoot 1080/24p. The 1080 image won't rival a CineAlta, but it will almost certainly be good enough for reality shows, and perhaps even some episodics. The camera won't be all things to all people, but it's still the closest we've ever had in this form factor, and at this price.
 
MovieSwede said:
...as for 1080/24P in a 60i stream. Because DVCPROHD doesnt "support" 1080P they shoot 24 frames/sec and then put them in 30 frames then put those in the interlace stream. When you later edit, you then can take out the individual 24 frames from the 60i stream
Click to expand...

I know there is a bit of an explanation allready in the thread. I am sure also that it was sufficient for many, but since I'm still feeling dizzy from trying to make sense of it: Do you think you guys could give me a 3rd grader version? LOL
I'm not just trying to get the quick "how to" for the editing session, but instead trying to actually understand how the camera captures the frames also...

Thank you so much for all the free tutoring. I'm allways reading stuff from Imaloser, AZScott and MovieSwede. :beer: :beer: :beer:
 
USLatinContent said:
Do you think you guys could give me a 3rd grader version? LOL
Click to expand...
Okay, 3rd-grader version:

It definitely does support 1080/24p. It does it the legitimate, "good" way -- by using progressive-scan CCDs, capturing one complete frame every 1/24th of a second. Those frames are written to the card exactly the same way as the DVX does it. It should look exactly as good as the DVX, but with 4 times as much resolution for a true high-def experience.

For 720p, it captures the frames and writes them directly to the P2 card. Each and every frame is captured individually, just like a frame of film.

In other words, when it comes to the HVX, you're getting exactly what you want, exactly the way it should be done. Genuine 24P, in both 1080 and 720 resolutions.
 
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