100B/BE NTSC/PAL Help

S

Stephen

Member
Hi all,

My first post here, and like all the other first posts before me, I come bearing a question. :)

After many months of homework (and saving money), my choices were the usual ones... XL2, HD, or the DVX100. Then just last night I saw the 3 way shootout review on this site and immediately my decision making days are over... until a few minutes ago, that is.

http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/shoot3/

There are 2 versions of this cam. DVX100B and DVX100BE. (Please correct me if I'm wrong, but they are in fact the same cam, just NTSC and PAL versions respectively).

Comes my concern...

PAL is 25fps and not 24fps, so this brilliant 24p film speed feature that made this cam so great is MISSING on the PAL version.

I would really like some comments on this, since my current thinking is - I would be stupid to buy the PAL version.


Section of features list...

High-Quality, Native Progressive 24p/30p(NTSC), 25p(PAL) Mode
24p Advance Mode — For 24p Non-Linear Editing(NTSC)
25p Shooting — 50i Recording(PAL)
24p/30p(NTSC), 25p(PAL) Shooting Functions for Professionals
 
Stephen said:
PAL is 25fps and not 24fps, so this brilliant 24p film speed feature that made this cam so great is MISSING on the PAL version.
Click to expand...
There's NO visible difference between 25p and 24p. If you are in PAL land a NTSC camera will be a major headache and vice-versa. Cross conversion for delivery will only ruin the quality of the picture without any real benefit. BTW, BP is NTSC, BE is PAL.
 
25p is tecnically very easy to implement on PAL cameras, as their native format is 2x25i=50i. What worries you on 25p? Can you tell the diffence if 25 fps is tranfered to film and you look at it at 24 fps on the screen? It is just a tad slowed down, can not be noticed. When shown on PAL television 25p is BETTER than 24p, as it plays at the correct speed without any conversion.

The whole NTSC 24p system is a mess, if you live in a PAL land, enjoy the better PAL quality and the tecnical easines we lucky people have with 25p. This all NTSC 24p whining about puldown, 29.97 frame rates and other bull need not concern us.
 
Petrus said:
What worries you on 25p? Can you tell the diffence if 25 fps is tranfered to film and you look at it at 24 fps on the screen? It is just a tad slowed down, can not be noticed.
Click to expand...

This all turned around nicely. I thought I was unlucky, now it seems I have the better half of the deal. If the quality is the same then that's perfect.

Thanks both of you for your help.

100BE here we come.
 
I understand where Stephen is coming from -- I bought a PAL DVX the other day (I'm a Brit) and I was also a tad worried that my 25p footage would loose the NTSC 24p's filmic look.

I know it's been mentioned above, but can someone allay my fears and please confirm the 24p/25p difference is none-existent/negligible?

I've been shooting some tests in 25p mode with 1/50th shutter speed and the footage looks nice... But I don't have any NTSC 24p to compare it to so I'm not sure whether I'm loosing out picture wise.

Thanks.
 
Need to add that PAL 25p is also sharper, as the resolution is better than NTSC. So you win in three counts:

1) Tecnically easy to record (just use the two fields of standard 50i stream), no pulldown NTSC madness

2) Better resolution

3) smoother motion (well, some people WANT it jerky...)
 
"28 days later" and "land of plenty" from wim wenders were shot with PAL xl1 and dvx100.....
ntsc: 720x480 60i
pal:720x576 50i
that means that ntsc shows more images in one second but they loose in resolution, pal show less images but with a better resolution.you will see no diiferences between 24p and 25p, only a better resolution with pal (480 -> 576).

i found that in another forum:

"don't bother with 24p because 24p and 25p are almost the same. If you shoot for TV, 25p is fine for PAL.
If you shoot for the big screen you just slow down the movie by about 4%. The difference between 24 fps and 25 fps is not noticeable. However, you have to take care about the sound in that case.
Compare the running time of a movie you saw in the cinema with the running time of the same movie on a PAL-DVD. It is approximately 4% shorter on the DVD because it was shot at 24 fps and is now replayed at 25 fps. But you won't notice the difference.
Who could tell the difference between 25p and 24p? Nobody; not humanly possible, so it's no big deal I think".

hope it helps .....
 
Stephen said:
PAL is 25fps and not 24fps, so this brilliant 24p film speed feature that made this cam so great is MISSING on the PAL version.
Click to expand...

i think you miss the point.
it's not exactly the 24 "speed" feature which is fantastic on this cam.
to be clear: one second in pal standard (for tv) is made of 50 half images in fact, and 60 for ntsc. one second shooted with a film camera is made of 24 complete images. the dvx allows you to shoot 25 complete images in pal or 30 complete images in ntsc. here is the film look.
to be more filmic you have to be near the film cameras speed, so, as 30p in ntsc is far from 24p, the cam is making some complex algorythm inside to obtain this 24p. and, in pal, as the difference between 25p and 24p is not noticeable, it's much more easier to just stay with 25p.
 
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Thanks everyone. Very helpful indeed.

I must comment that yesterday, for the first time, I held my new DVX100BE in my hands.

*sigh*
 
Also, it can be argued that PAL's colour is better for keying. It uses 4:2:0 and not 4:1:1. You get lower vertical chroma res than NTSC, but higher horizontal.

Make that 4 counts.......maybe ;)
 
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